CR for monster cleric

[Dark Dragon]

Hi,

I'm searching the CR adjustment for a kuo'toa cleric (lvl 11). It is not in the DMG or the MM, so, any ideas, links, etc.?

Thanks!

P.S.: Can a druid who has taken the form of a kuo'toa (by his Alter self ability) cast spells underwater?

 

[dcollins]

DMG Chapter 4, "Tougher Monsters" (p. 102 for me):
adjusted CR = Monster CR + PC class levels

According to the underwater rules in WOTC's web enhancement, there are no limitations to anyone casting spells underwater. See here: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/we/we20010713b

 

[Dark Dragon]

* WARNING: RttToEE spoilers! *

DMG Chapter 4, "Tougher Monsters" (p. 102 for me):
adjusted CR = Monster CR + PC class levels

Damn, I should go to a doctor to check my eyes.
Ok, your point was also my first approach on the CR matter, but I didn't used it because of that CR adjustment table for powerful races / creatures in the DMG (somewhere at the beginning of the book) and the rules in the MM II.
Examples for CR adjustments:

A troll (CR 5) has an adjustment of +7 (or +8?), it has three special abilities: scent, darkvision, regeneration 5 and 6 HD. STR and CON are high.

A troglodyte (CR 1) has an adjustment of +2, it has two specials: stench and darkvision and 2 HD.

A loxol (CR 2, see MM II) has an adjustment of +7 and two specials (not 100 % sure, because I don't have the book at work): Trample and rage (perhaps also scent) and 5 HD. STR (perhaps also CON) is quite high.

An ogre (CR 2) has an adjustment of +5 and one special: Weapon Focus (greatclub) and 4 HD. STR is quite high.

A kuo'toa (CR 2) has an adjustment +X and a bunch of specials:
keen sight (allowing to detect even etheral and invisible creatures), slippery skin, adhesive, immunities (against paralysis, poison, hold, figments), electricity resistance 30, amphibious and light sensitivity (a poor weakness) and 2 HD. Two clerics may evoke a lightning bolt.

You see, it is not so easy to use the simple formular CR + class levels to get along. For the kuo'toa, an adjustment of +2 would be definetivly too low, IMO. +4 (or more?) would fit better. If both a kuo'toa and an ogre would advance in a class, the specials of the ogre would pale against those of the kuo'toa.

According to the underwater rules in WOTC's web enhancement, there are no limitations to anyone casting spells underwater. See here: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/we/we20010713b

Ahh, thanks for that link. Too bad that our DM ignored it (he plays RttToEE) and rule-0ed it like this for the druid and the wizard: You didn't learned the spells as a kuo'toa so you can't cast them as a kuo'toa...The result was that the wizard and the druid effectively lost their spell power while fighting in the water temple's sanctum (which was completely flooded). It ended in a near TPK, the paladin and the cleric at their last 30 % of hp, the wizard holding his ground as an orca (badly injured) and the druid disintegrated...
Oh, I forgot: the party has an average level of 14.5, was fully prepared for an ambush on the sanctum, knew the foes (not their level, but they knew that the clerics will use Harm and Inflict wounds as often as possible) and had worked out a tactic how to handle the priests and wizard. But without spells... End of rant.

I'm asking for the adjustment because I think that DM has not properly adjusted the monsters. The party had similar troubles in the Earth temple with the troglodyte clerics (who killed the ranger).

 

[dcollins]

Ok, your point was also my first approach on the CR matter, but I didn't used it because of that CR adjustment table for powerful races / creatures in the DMG (somewhere at the beginning of the book) and the rules in the MM II.
Examples for CR adjustments:

No. The table near the beginning of the DMG is not for CR adjustments -- it is for "level equivalent", otherwise known as "ECL", adjustments, and they are two very different things.

- CR measures how hard it is for PCs to fight a monster.
- ECL measures how hard it is for PCs to be a monster.

Since some monsters have abilities that would be great out-of-combat, we need to use two separate numbers for these issues. If the PCs are just fighting the monster, you only need to use the CR adjustment on DMG p. 102.

 

[Dark Dragon]

You're right (thanks for the hint ).
I don't like the ruling (I gave the example with the ogre and kuo'toa), but it's up tp the DM to change it and use the rules for PCs also for NPCs (I did) or leave it as it is...