D&D 3E/3.5 Crafting and Balance? (3.5)

[SocratesOnFire]

So, what is the point of crafting? Ever. The only possible advantage to ever crafting a magic item, burning a feat and Exp, is to save money on the equipment of oneself and one’s party is it not? But if you save money for yourself and the party you cause that party to have more valuable equipment then they would otherwise. And if they have more valuable equipment, the party is stronger then they ought to be by ECL. In my particular case, I had a DM with a starting six player 12th level campaign in which I played a mage with the craft wondrous item feat. I crafted only wondrous items for the party, and saved the party 76,712.5 gp, not counting crafting of my own equipment. I took a 80% cut of the savings, allowing players to have a total 10% discount off the base price while I earned a 40% profit off the base price. This resulted in an average increase in party wealth, for the other five players, of 3.5% or 3,068.5 gp and an average starting equipment value of 91,068.5 gp compared to the standard 88,000gp. For me, this resulted in a 61,370gp or 70% increase in starting gold or 149,370gp compared to the standard 88,000gp. The total cost to me was around 6,137 Exp and about half a year.
I crafted many of my own items as well, further increasing this starting value by 57,500gp in value and causing me to have increase in wealth of 135% or 118,870gp, with an equipment worth of 206,870gp, compared to the 88,000gp standard. That does seem rather large for a total Exp cost of 7,737, however Wizards has never expressed concern over item crafting the way they have over polymorph or other potential game breaking mechanics. DMG, DMG II, and Complete Arcane express no concern over such crafting but rather encourage it. In this particular game, the DM intends to bump the CR, but his attempts to seek advice on the subject labeled me a power gamer though I use only the basic core rules in my character. Further, almost all (100,875gp, or 84.9%) of the money gained went into an RP fluff demanded Blessed Book of 650 spells, most of which my character will never use (golem strike?). The total effect of the extra gold is fluff, which I feel debunks claims of munchkinism. However this does seem like a rather pertinent question as standard, core forms of item crafting seem breakable. The essential question remains, if you can’t use these feats and Exp to save significant amounts of money, what’s the point of ever having them?

 

[DumbPaladin]

It's odd ... the only thing you did that I could see a DM being horribly concerned about (though I've not a huge amount of experience being a D&D DM) would be that you discounted the cost of the items to the party, thus throwing off the basic chart for character wealth per level. But it wasn't huge.

I think Craft is honestly DM and world-dependent in terms of use, just like Profession. My current character has no ranks in either, and has never needed any: he goes and buys whatever he needs at the ample stores in any medium-sized city, and someone else does all the things that someone with ranks in Profession would do.

In 2.0/2.5, I played a ranger/cleric with a non-weapon proficiency in woodworking, which the DM decided allowed me to actually whittle down branches I found into wood-tipped arrows for -1 to damage, but arrows nonetheless. This DM kept track of everything, and eventually the entire party was out of arrows and some spell compnents with nowhere to replenish the supply ... this has been my only experience to date with being glad I could craft something.

Craft seems helpful for repairing armor and weapons ... but if monsters never Sunder your items, I guess that won't really matter, either.

 

[irdeggman]

It doesn't specifically state so, but I don't think you are supposed to count items that you make when calculating party wealth.

The reason I say this is several fold:

You don't count summoned creatures when determining xp - they are assumed to be part of the character since he had to spend assets (i.e., spell slots) to acquire them.

You can't increase your wealth by making magic items - that is per strict RAW you can't sell them for a profit.

You have to expend xp to craft them - thus using resources (as well as material costs {coming from your "wealth"}, spell slots and of course "time")

 

[SocratesOnFire]

The problem though, is that if treasure the party finds has been adjusted to compensate for magic item crafting, then there is no incentive to craft magic items. The party would end up with the same value in equipment, but with one fewer useful feat (or more) and a lot less exp.

 

[irdeggman]

The problem though, is that if treasure the party finds has been adjusted to compensate for magic item crafting, then there is no incentive to craft magic items. The party would end up with the same value in equipment, but with one fewer useful feat (or more) and a lot less exp.

If you are commenting on my post then I don't see your point or rather I see that you would be agreeing with me in that any party created magic items are not supposed to be added in if determining party wealth.

And that the treasure tables already have that factored in just like the xp tables have summoned creatures factored in (basically they ignore them).

 

[Xorran]

Since you didn't really explain the initial campaign idea, I'm going to guess that all six of you have been adventuring together for nearly all your levels, even though you started at 12th level? If that is the case, it might be you DM's first mistake, by allowing you to make money off the other players right off the start.

Another thing to remember, is if your DM started you off at 12th level, most DM's would set your XP right at that level, eg. 66,001 XP, which means, from the very first magical item you made (obviously before you were level 12) means that you never even reached level 12, and your max level would have therefore been level 11, easily explained by the fact that you spent several months not adventuring, and just crafting items. Which also means, you only had an initial amount of 66,000 to work with, not 88,00 like everyone else. Which also means you lose out on skill points, one feat, AND an ability score increase. You also have to remember, you would not be able to craft anything that required a higher caster level than level 11, AND you would have had to have those spells in your spellbook BEFORE you ended up with the large chunk of money to purchase spells with.

One last thing that your DM should have done, was put a gold cap on the items you were allowed to purchase per item. I would have made it like 1500gp or somewhere about, basically saying, over the last several years, you never accumulated over 1500gp at any given time, and was basically spending it as you got it.

On a final note, as far as magic items increasing your EL, it shouldn't really be the case, since you weren't able to make any high end items, requiring a caster level any higher than 11.

But congrats on basically convincing your DM that you could do whatever you wanted

 

[Ashtagon]

You pay for that extra wealth in gp value of magic items by the loss of a feat (and a token amount of xp which is rapidly recovered thanks to the way xp earning works).

 

[jefgorbach]

right, so where's the problem?

Crafting takes time. Its generally presumed the whole party will /not/ simply stop and camp/party for the lengthy time needed for you to craft the desired item(s), meaning you're doing it as a solo side-trek while the balance of the group continued earning XP and learned skills/feats during your absence - putting you behind them level-wise since gold no longer counts towards Xp.

Since you couldnt know what the others wanted prior to meeting them, you would have begun crafting following the initial meeting, re-joining the group half-a-year later ... presuming you have some means of contacting/locating the group once done. There's also the real risk whatever you were working on may have been rendered moot by something equal/better discovered during their subsequent travels - presenting further roleplaying opportunity for both players regarding the agreed upon transaction.

 

[SocratesOnFire]

Since you didn't really explain the initial campaign idea, I'm going to guess that all six of you have been adventuring together for nearly all your levels, even though you started at 12th level? If that is the case, it might be you DM's first mistake, by allowing you to make money off the other players right off the start.

Another thing to remember, is if your DM started you off at 12th level, most DM's would set your XP right at that level, eg. 66,001 XP, which means, from the very first magical item you made (obviously before you were level 12) means that you never even reached level 12, and your max level would have therefore been level 11, easily explained by the fact that you spent several months not adventuring, and just crafting items. Which also means, you only had an initial amount of 66,000 to work with, not 88,00 like everyone else. Which also means you lose out on skill points, one feat, AND an ability score increase. You also have to remember, you would not be able to craft anything that required a higher caster level than level 11, AND you would have had to have those spells in your spellbook BEFORE you ended up with the large chunk of money to purchase spells with.

One last thing that your DM should have done, was put a gold cap on the items you were allowed to purchase per item. I would have made it like 1500gp or somewhere about, basically saying, over the last several years, you never accumulated over 1500gp at any given time, and was basically spending it as you got it.

On a final note, as far as magic items increasing your EL, it shouldn't really be the case, since you weren't able to make any high end items, requiring a caster level any higher than 11.

But congrats on basically convincing your DM that you could do whatever you wanted

Actually, I accounted for everything. The wizard was level eleven, he had spent nearly a year in the last 10 the party had been together to craft (and months to scribe his book), the items he crafted were those he could have crafted with his caster level, and he still starts out with 88,000 gp (leveling up more slowly doesn't magically reduce the amount of money a character earns in a party during the adventuring from 1st to 12th). A 1500gp limit seems pretty absurd, as I've been in enough campaigns to know that no PC spends his gold in 1500gp increments, he saves it. I think if I tried only allowing players buy items worth up to 1500gp, if I was DM (and I have been), there'd be a coup.
But all of this aside, the numbers would have been the same if we had played from level 1 up to level 12. Same gold, same equipment. And having the party wizard one level behind doesn't balance a 150,000gp increase in party wealth.

 

[SocratesOnFire]

If you are commenting on my post then I don't see your point or rather I see that you would be agreeing with me in that any party created magic items are not supposed to be added in if determining party wealth.

And that the treasure tables already have that factored in just like the xp tables have summoned creatures factored in (basically they ignore them).

I misread your initial statement, my apologies.
But, on point, the amount of gold saved by item crafting turns one wizard level into hundreds of thousands of gold for the party, which seems to heavily out weigh the costs.