Crafting, Resources, and D&D

[Greenfield]

But could you accept a guy who can create a true masterwork with a wave of his hand?

To make crafting a necessary part of the world you need only choose to make it so. Magic might be able to create items of ordinary utility, but it cannot create a masterwork. Also, in order to enchant an item to create a Magic Item, it must first be a masterwork of its type. Earlier versions of D&D specified things like the item must be 'flawless', prior to being enchanted.

In this way a powerful user of magic could create all of the mundane items he chooses to, but couldn't create a true Magic Item without the aid of a master craftsman. Your Wizard wants to create a magic sword? He'll need a master swordsmith to work with him. This also has the ancillary benefit of helping to control magic in the campaign.

Um, pardon me for asking, but where did this idea come from, that spells like Fabricate can't produce masterwork items? The Wish, Limited Wish, Miracle, Major Creation and/or True Creation spells can't create masterwork items?

Fabricate says that you have to make the craft rolls, and inherently denies you circumstance bonuses (or penalties) for tools, work shops, assistants to Aid Another, etc, but as far as I know it never puts any restrictions on the quality of the items you can make.

Wish can explicitly create items up to 25 k in value, and can create magic items as well. Read the spell.

If there's something in the rules that I missed, please enlighten me. (Note that I'm familiar with D&D rules all the way back to three paperbound books, but my D&D 4e and Pathfinder knowledge is a bit weak. 5e is still evolving.)

Perhaps it's a house rule of yours?

 

[Ryujin]

Um, pardon me for asking, but where did this idea come from, that spells like Fabricate can't produce masterwork items? The Wish, Limited Wish, Miracle, Major Creation and/or True Creation spells can't create masterwork items?

Fabricate says that you have to make the craft rolls, and inherently denies you circumstance bonuses (or penalties) for tools, work shops, assistants to Aid Another, etc, but as far as I know it never puts any restrictions on the quality of the items you can make.

Wish can explicitly create items up to 25 k in value, and can create magic items as well. Read the spell.

If there's something in the rules that I missed, please enlighten me. (Note that I'm familiar with D&D rules all the way back to three paperbound books, but my D&D 4e and Pathfinder knowledge is a bit weak. 5e is still evolving.)

Perhaps it's a house rule of yours?

It comes from, "To make crafting a necessary part of the world you need only choose to make it so."

 

[Greenfield]

It comes from, "To make crafting a necessary part of the world you need only choose to make it so."

How does that answer the question about why magic can't be used to craft/create masterworked items.

Did I miss something?

 

[nijineko]

Item creation has generally been relegated to backgrounds or fluff skills, often with no real use past the first couple levels, if they're even useful then. So what if your 15th-level fighter is a blacksmith - unless he can make magical weapons and armor with that skill, it's worse than useless, as those skill points could have been spent in something useful like tumble or whatever.

I find this unfortunate.

Would anybody else like to see crafting be a more integral part of the game?

we have always played it as a more integral part of our games. so i would be in the 'yes' category.

one of my characters had a master that taught his students how to properly hold the bow for certain kinds of shooting by using calligraphy pens with unusual projections, and not permitting the palm or elbow to rest on anything while writing. he obtained a secondary income as a scribe from his students efforts, and taught them two skills at once.

when my character is in disguise, or needing to infiltrate somewhere for some reason, he will sometimes pose as a scribe, as he is well known as a bowyer and fletcher. in his campaign, he invented the greatbow.



another character of mine is a sandshaper. he has teamed up with the pyrokinetic of the party to create unique and wonderous glass sculptures, which he sells for quite a bit.



yet another character of mine is an artificer, and he crafts for everyone in the group. if he runs out of reserve points, he requires xp transfer from the requestee, using one of the methods in the phb2 web enhancement.

 

[Ryujin]

How does that answer the question about why magic can't be used to craft/create masterworked items.

Did I miss something?

I guess you did. If I'm stating that you have to make something so then either it's going to be a house rule, or something that would need to be encoded in future rules.

For 1e it was explicitly stated that the item must be 'flawless' prior to being the subject of enchantment, which could easily be interpreted as requiring a master craftsman. In later editions I don't remember that being stated, so it could be house ruled to be so. Now that 5e is in testing, I would suggest that it would be a good addition to the rules that magic couldn't simply create great works.

I simply restated my original comment, in my last post, because I thought that statement to be rather clear.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

If I can accept a guy who can kill a dragon with a single stroke of the sword, I can accept a guy who can make plate armor in a day.

I don't... and the only way to do that is with a magic sword anyway.

To make crafting a necessary part of the world you need only choose to make it so. Magic might be able to create items of ordinary utility, but it cannot create a masterwork. Also, in order to enchant an item to create a Magic Item, it must first be a masterwork of its type. Earlier versions of D&D specified things like the item must be 'flawless', prior to being enchanted.

This is still all background stuff. If you make an item a pain to make, PCs will simply buy them. If items are important to game balance and you won't let PCs get items without jumping through hoops, then you're wrecking game balance. If items aren't necessary, PCs will rarely if ever consider going through the hoops. In short, you won't actually see PCs going to the trouble of spending skill points and time making stuff. In fact, denying mages the ability to make magic weapons doesn't hurt them at all, as they don't need that stuff.

 

[Ryujin]

This is still all background stuff. If you make an item a pain to make, PCs will simply buy them. If items are important to game balance and you won't let PCs get items without jumping through hoops, then you're wrecking game balance. If items aren't necessary, PCs will rarely if ever consider going through the hoops. In short, you won't actually see PCs going to the trouble of spending skill points and time making stuff. In fact, denying mages the ability to make magic weapons doesn't hurt them at all, as they don't need that stuff.

It comes down to the answers to two fairly simple questions then:

Are magic items necessary to balance?

...and...

Are the players the type who lean toward role play, or do they prefer to just cut stuff up?

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

It comes down to the answers to two fairly simple questions then:

Are magic items necessary to balance?

Within the rules, they are. 4e inherent bonuses are the first instance I've seen in D&D since 2e where removing magic items work. I don't count 3.x inherent bonuses because it wasn't balanced, and 2e and previous didn't have guidelines for # of magic items or how powerful they should be.

...and...

Are the players the type who lean toward role play, or do they prefer to just cut stuff up?

You don't need to spend weeks crafting something (and waste skill points/slots on that) that you could just buy to promote RP. That does promote boredom. It's even worse if those skills actually enhance your power, because now you're just grinding stuff out, or if you're trying to set up a business which just interferes with other PC goals.

 

[Greenfield]

I guess you did. If I'm stating that you have to make something so then either it's going to be a house rule, or something that would need to be encoded in future rules.

For 1e it was explicitly stated that the item must be 'flawless' prior to being the subject of enchantment, which could easily be interpreted as requiring a master craftsman. In later editions I don't remember that being stated, so it could be house ruled to be so. Now that 5e is in testing, I would suggest that it would be a good addition to the rules that magic couldn't simply create great works.

I simply restated my original comment, in my last post, because I thought that statement to be rather clear.

Okay, let's start over, and let's both try to write complete sentences.

Ryujin, In post #20 you said that magic can't create masterworked items. To quote the specific wording:

But could you accept a guy who can create a true masterwork with a wave of his hand?

To make crafting a necessary part of the world you need only choose to make it so. Magic might be able to create items of ordinary utility, but it cannot create a masterwork. ...

From this you derived that, because masterwork is required to create magic items, and because magic can't create masterwork, magicians can't create magic items without a master craftsman.

It was the foundation of this argument that I was questioning: Why can't magic create masterworked items?

My question was, where did the idea that magic can't create masterworked items come from? Is there an explicit rule? Is it something derived from some specific rule? (If so, could you cite the rule and explain the derivation?) Is that edition specific? Is it common to several editions? Is it a house rule of your own?

You stated it as if it were some commonly accepted absolute, so that's why I questioned it.

(As a simple point of math: Wizards specialize in Intelligence, as a stat. Craft is an Intelligence based skill. Not that far out to think that a Wizard would have a +6 to that skill from Intelligence alone by the time they can cast Fabricate. Four points in any given crafting skill and you're a master: +10 total lets you Take 10 on the Craft check and get a 20. Add Fox's Cunning for another +2. short term though it be, and you only need an 18 Int as your base when you cast Fabricate, or only two points of skill if you already had the 22. And if you require an actual dice roll then they have to cast Fabricate again to repair the damage and finish the item, masterwork and all.)

 

[Ryujin]

Then let me clarify.

If you operate under the assumption that magic can't create anything better than a serviceable example of an item, not a masterwork one, then a user of magic can't just hand-wave a masterwork item into existence. This assumption can be by house rule, DM fiat, or explicitly stated in the rules.

If you then also make the assumption that a magic item can only be crafted using a masterwork item as a base you then create a situation in which either a user of magic must cooperate with a skilled artisan, or be a skilled artisan himself, in order to produce a magic item.

I make no assumption as to the specific flavour of D&D involved, as this is a general thread. I didn't state it as if it was a commonly held assumption but rather IF it was assumed to be the case, for one of various possible reasons.

I wouldn't do this sort of thing in a 4e campaign, unless it was one that used inherent bonuses, because the system mechanics assume that characters will have certain enhancements at a given level. With that said, I think that 4e took that to a ridiculous extreme. My 20th level Warlock turned out potions and magic items out of thin air, during long rests, on more than one occasion.

Creating the necessity that an item be crafted, prior to being magicked, creates a more believable scenario. The only benefit might well be in it taking game time to create them, rather than having magic items roll off an assembly line and, thereby, having absolutely no real value nor personality of their own. Thirty plus years ago our characters went to great lengths to secure what we needed to create items of real power, then to have the materials turned into the items via skill and magic. That +3 two-handed sword represented numerous victories and interaction with NPCs.

It wasn't a few thousand gold carelessly tossed at a merchant in a marketplace.