Crafting rules

[CCamfield]

I'm just curious as to whether anyone has come up with variations on D&D's craft rules.

Maybe I'm figuring things wrong, but there seems to be something odd about the DC for difficult items being multiplied by the check result to determine progress.

Let's take a greatsword (50gp martial weapon, DC 15) versus a hypothetical exotic weapon which also costs 50gp (DC 18).

If someone has sufficient skill to make either reliably, they will be able to make the exotic weapon faster. Huh?

Just riffing on this idea, the margin of success (value rolled in excess of the DC) would seem like a factor that ought to be involved in determining progress. Or maybe the DC shouldn't factor into it at all, just a set factor or the check result multiplied by the character's skill. Since a character's skill bonus tends to be smaller than the DC, there would have to be a multiplier by a constant involved.

 

[Kahuna Burger]

I'm just curious as to whether anyone has come up with variations on D&D's craft rules.

while you're at it, whats up with having to invest in materials directly proportional to the cost of the end item, not matter what the item is? It occurs to me that some very expensive items could be produced with materials that are essentially free (wood carvers, potters, etc). Dm's have to do a LOT of reasonable interpretations of the rules in order to make the crafting rules make sense.

Kahuna Burger

 

[Drawmack]

From the SRD
The DC, the character's check results, and the price of the item determine how long it takes to make the item.

Deterniming time and money to make an item
1. Find the DC listed here or have the DM set one.
2. Pay one-third the item's price in raw materials.
3. Make a skill check representing one week's work.

If the check succeeds, multiply the check result by the DC. If the result times the DC equals the price of the item multiplied by 10, then the character has completed the item. (If the result times the DC equals double or triple the price of the item (multiplied by 10), then the character has completed the task in one-half or one-third the time, and so on.) If the result times the DC doesn't equal the price multiplied by 10, then it represents progress the character has made this week. Record the result and make a check for the next week. Each week the character makes more progress until the character's total reaches the price of the item multiplied by 10.

If the character fails the check, the character makes no progress this week. If the character fails by 5 or more, the character ruins half the raw materials and have to pay half the original raw material cost again.

Martial melee or thrown weapon Weaponsmith 15
Exotic melee or thrown weapon Weaponsmith 18

Okay from above here are the calculations.

50gp Martial weapon
Price: 16 gp 6sp 7cp (rounded up)
Craft DC: 15
Completion Score: 50 x 10 = 500

50gp Exotic weapon
Price: 16gp 6sp 7cp (rounded up)
Craft DC: 18
Completion Score: 50 x 10 = 500

A bit of statistics.
The character has a 15% ((18-15)/20) greater chance of failing their check each week for the exotic weapon but the completion time will average 15% less time.

The question becomes is this balanced.
Lets compare creating the items created by a fictional character with a +5 to craft.

To make a martial weapon the character must roll 10+ giving them a 55% chance of passing the check, with a 25% chance of ruining the item.

To make an exotic weapon the character must roll 13+ giving them a 40% chance of passing the check, with a 40% chance of ruining the item.

The character will complete the martial weapon 20% more often.

So the new question is does ruining the item 20% more often balance the completed work being done 15% faster on average?

Ruining an item costs time spent + (1/2) x raw material costs.

This means that the profit margin on the exitic weapon is 20% less then the profit margin on the martial weapon. Which equates to:
Martial Weapon Profit: (49 - 16 gp, 9 - 6 sp, 10 - 7 cp) 33 gp 3 sp 3 cp
Exotic Weapon Profit: (33 x .8 gp, 3 x .8 sp, 3 x .8 cp) 26 gp 6 sp 6 cp

However since you make the exotic weapons 15% faster over time the profit margin becomes 5% lower on the exotic weapon. Bringing the totals to:
Martial Weapon Profit: (49 - 16 gp, 9 - 6 sp, 10 - 7 cp) 33 gp 3 sp 3 cp
Exotic Weapon Profit: (33 x .95 gp, 3 x .95 sp, 3 x .95 cp) 31 gp 6 sp 9 cp (rounded up)

Since the average profit margin on the exotic weapon is still lower then the average profit margin on the martial wepon this skill is balanced in this respect.

Edit: Fixed mathematical error that cause original post to be erroneous.

 

[Drawmack]

Re: Re: Crafting rules

while you're at it, whats up with having to invest in materials directly proportional to the cost of the end item, not matter what the item is? It occurs to me that some very expensive items could be produced with materials that are essentially free (wood carvers, potters, etc). Dm's have to do a LOT of reasonable interpretations of the rules in order to make the crafting rules make sense.

If your wood carver is harvesting his own wood and the potter is refining their own clay then the raw material cost drops to zero but time to creat the item doubles as does the multiplier for reducing the time to craft the item. Someone who gathers their own materials and then makes the item is better expressed as a profession then a craft. Possibly the crafter could make the purchaser supply raw materials but then the market price of the item should be reduced, let's say, by 1/3 to keep the rules balanced.

Reasonably the woodcarver has a staff to aid him. Let's say that we have a lumberjack (Profession) and a woodcarver working together. Then the profits become 100% but need to be split 50/50 effectivly reducing profit margin by 8%. Therefor the crafter is better off to simply purchase the raw materials.

 

[Drawmack]

Is noone interested in this or was I simply so far off the mark that everyone is too busy laughing to post?

 

[CCamfield]

No, what you're saying is not unreasonable... your big post about the rates of construction and failure made me realize I need to really do more math on this. Or just use the rules as stated, for simplicity's sake.

While I was still in my previous mode of thought, I came up with this alternate mechanic, which I'll just throw out for what it's worth.

To determine construction progress, you multiply the check result by the sum of the character's skill bonus and the margin of success.

For a character with a +10 in crafting weapons who is making swords (DC 15), this generates the same results on a roll of 10 for a check result of 20.

In the old system, you multiply 20x15 to get 300.
In this other system, you'd multiply 20x(10+5) and thus gain the same value.

However, if making an exotic weapon, the progress on a roll of 10 would be 20x(10+3) - slightly less.

Where this all stemmed from was looking at the prices and thus construction time for dracotechnic (alchemical explosive!) items in AEG's Mercenaries. Making a 150gp DC 18 item which is one use only is not a very effective use of one's time. I think I need to look at other alchemical thrown weapons, and their damages, and see whether the costs are in line or not.

 

[Drawmack]

That would make the profit margin on exotic weapons 20% lower then martial weapons but martial weapons would only be 5% lower then simple. Personally I'd leave it as is.

 

[Kahuna Burger]

Re: Re: Re: Crafting rules

If your wood carver is harvesting his own wood and the potter is refining their own clay then the raw material cost drops to zero but time to creat the item doubles as does the multiplier for reducing the time to craft the item. Someone who gathers their own materials and then makes the item is better expressed as a profession then a craft. Possibly the crafter could make the purchaser supply raw materials but then the market price of the item should be reduced, let's say, by 1/3 to keep the rules balanced.

"to keep the rules balanced" is no reason at all for something craft related. Some professions/crafts/arts have a higher profit margin. It's just reality. IRL I've plied several crafts. There are some where I can make an item fairly quickly and reasonably sell it for upwards of 10 times the materials cost. Other things take longer to make and I barely turn a profit but do it to make specialised short runs of something for a group I'm involved in (political buttons, for instance.)

There are drawbacks for low investment crafts. usually they tend towards the "luxury items" and it can be hard to seel them when times are tough. There's also often an artistic as well as craft component, the costs of which it might be hard to model. But an adventurer who works with wood can pick out nice peices on adventure at no cost except her tools. Assigning GP investment for "materials" is silly in many cases, especially at a set proportion. Doing complicated math to "balance" all crafts is just punishing players who make good out of adventure career choices for their characters.

Kahuna Burger

 

[Drawmack]

Yeah I understand what you're saying. Heck I mack computer programs and wooden nick-nacks. 0% money - lots of money. But in a game mechanic you either need a complex table rating every possible craft skill with it's % raw material cost or you need a basic mechanic that goes across the board and applies to all craft skills. For simplicity most games will use some sort of mechanic like this or leave it up to GM disgrection. I prefer the mechanic personally gives my players less ground to argue with me on.