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Creating rods...

Jack Simth said:
Well, if for some reason you want to let items that open to abuse into your game, you can, but but a metamagic rod of Persistent Spell is somewhat simple to abuse (at earlier/mid levels, it permits the Cleric to rock hardcore - a Persistant Find Traps (2nd level base spell) lets the Cleric out-search the Rogue when it comes to traps, all day long; a Persistant Divine Favor virtually lets you out-fight the fighter (but does real nifties for the Paladin); at mid levels, the Cleric can really outshine the fighter with daily combat buffs (persistent Divine Favor and Persistent Righeoutus Might)). Pretty handy for a Wizard, too.

However, if you want to derive a formula....
Code:
Level Modifier	Lesser		Normal		Greater
1		3000		11000		24500
2		9000		32500		73000
3		14000		54000		121500
4		35000		75500		170000

I've yet to find a pattern in the lesser rods, but for normal, it works out to 21500 * level modifier - 10500; greater: 48500 * level modifier - 24000 ... so a normal rod of Persistent spell would cost 6*21500-10500=118,500 gp; a greater: 6*48500-20500=270500

And, as the DM, either might cost you your sanity....


Yes, i agree that is very strong but divine metamagic with persistent does the same thing (in my game i don´t use divine metamagic) and the players will create the rod using the create rod feat. So he will lose XP and a lot of gold to do this, i think it´s balanced. What do you think?
 

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styker said:
Yes, i agree that is very strong but divine metamagic with persistent does the same thing (in my game i don´t use divine metamagic) and the players will create the rod using the create rod feat. So he will lose XP and a lot of gold to do this, i think it´s balanced. What do you think?
Let's see.... 4740 XP, 59,250 gp, one feat, and about four months game-time to craft an item that lets him, three times per day, use a feat that normally he could manage maybe twice via Divine Metamagic (without extra feats), that he could conceiveable craft multiples of, which could also very easily let him essentially perma-buff himself and outshine both the fighter at combat (full BAB + Luck bonuses + full spellcasting... using two charges for lower-level spells) and the rogue at trapfinding (one charge and a lower-level spell)? I would not want to let that in my campaign.
 

Jack Simth said:
Let's see.... 4740 XP, 59,250 gp, one feat, and about four months game-time to craft an item that lets him, three times per day, use a feat that normally he could manage maybe twice via Divine Metamagic (without extra feats), that he could conceiveable craft multiples of, which could also very easily let him essentially perma-buff himself and outshine both the fighter at combat (full BAB + Luck bonuses + full spellcasting... using two charges for lower-level spells) and the rogue at trapfinding (one charge and a lower-level spell)? I would not want to let that in my campaign.

Hum... i understand what you are saying but... what´s the difference between a rod of persistent and a rod of quicken spell in terms of power? Because the rod of persistent is more limited to the number of spells that he can be used since the rod of quicken you can use in 98% of the cases...
 

styker said:
Hum... i understand what you are saying but... what´s the difference between a rod of persistent and a rod of quicken spell in terms of power? Because the rod of persistent is more limited to the number of spells that he can be used since the rod of quicken you can use in 98% of the cases...
The difference is that the Rod of Quicken just makes the caster better at casting (his own niche), nothing else; the cleric/wizard can get twice as many level X spells off in the same amount of time, but the day's recources are quickly depleted for later. Persistent, on the other hand, combines with standard spells to eclipse others at their own niche (cleric spells especially) - A knoweledge domain cleric with a Rod of Persistent Spell can, with the expenditure of the daily use of the rod and three spells:

Find traps all day long (as a rogue, but with a decent insight bonus on the search checks). Sure, Search isn't a class skill for Clerics, but a cleric taking Search cross-class then casting a Persistent Find Traps eliminates one of the big reasons for having a rogue - finding and dealing with traps (Cleric can Dispel magic traps, and smash/blast/whatever mechanical traps, rather than simply disabling them). As the normal duration on Find Traps is only 1 min/level, that's normally useful for a hallway or two; if Persistent, it can cover a fair sized dungeon.

Hit better than the Fighter. At lower levels (up to 9th, in this case....), a Persistent Divine Favor grants +1-3 to-hit and damage - which, with the cleric's 3/4ths BAB, means that the cleric has a better chance of landing a blow than the fighter, and is likely dealing as much or more damage (barring Power Attack, which cuts down on the to-hit....). Without persistent, this isn't an issue, as it has a duration of a single minute - one combat, can't readily be cast beforehand, so eats a turn where the Cleric could be doing something else. A Metamagic rod of Persistent Spell removes that limitation. Later on, a Persistent Divine Power gives full BAB to the caster, a +6 enhancement to Strength, and one temporary HP/caster level. The average difference in HP between the d8 (cleric) and d10 (fighter) is one HP/level. Again, it's a short duration spell (1 round/level), by default, so it soaks up an action in combat, and is only good for the one fight; a metamagic rod of Persistent spell removes that limitation. Slightly later, Righeous Might does something similar (+4 Str, +2 Con, size increase to damage and reach, +2 natural armor) with the same default limit - and all three of the above stack. A cleric that gets up in the morning, prays, uses a Bead of Karma to increase his caster level (this is also the time for Greater Magic Weapon and Magic Vestments, of course; possibly Extended), then puts on Divine Favor, Divine Power, and Righteous Might all day with a standard Rod of Persistent Spell (let's say 11th level Cleric, just for laughs) gets: 3 iterative attacks (as an 11th level fighter), +3 Luck to hit and damage, +10 strength (6 enhancement, 4 size; which adds +5 to attack and damage (+7.5 to damage, if using a two-handed weapon)), +2 Con (+11 HP), DR 9/(either Good or Evil), +2 natural armor (enhancement - doesn't stack with an Amulet of Natural Armor), extra damage from increased size, and 15 temporary HP. Now, the fighter is going to have better base combat stats, and have weapon focus/specilization to add a little damage ... but is still likely to be eclipsed when whaling away on a hardened target by a cleric with the above combination.

Now, those are just some of the more obvious cases of nastyness - but I'm referring to nastyness in that it steals the niche away from the dedicated classes for that niche (fighter, rogue); if the Cleric (Wizard/Sorceror can do this too) also takes the divine Reach spell feat (gives a touch range spell a fixed range....) the Rod can also do more minor things like grant a daily +4 Enhancement bonus to a chosen ability (via Reach animal features - Bull's Strength, or Bear's Endurance, say).
 


Jack Simth said:
Let's see.... 4740 XP, 59,250 gp, one feat, and about four months game-time to craft an item that lets him, three times per day, use a feat that normally he could manage maybe twice via Divine Metamagic (without extra feats), that he could conceiveable craft multiples of, which could also very easily let him essentially perma-buff himself and outshine both the fighter at combat (full BAB + Luck bonuses + full spellcasting... using two charges for lower-level spells) and the rogue at trapfinding (one charge and a lower-level spell)? I would not want to let that in my campaign.

With that amount of XP and GP involved with this item, you're not going to see multiples on the same character until Epic levels. I foresee no problem.
 

This is the question, we are playing since 5th level and probably we will go to epic levels, then the combo was this: rod of persistent + divine power + divine favor + righteous might and in the epic levels he takes tenacious magic... so... 24 hours for a day better than a fighter, and with this he doensn´t need to take epic spellcasting 10th and epic spellcasting 11th to put persistent in divine power and righteous might, so the rod has the same effect of 2 epic feats...
 

Elephant said:
With that amount of XP and GP involved with this item, you're not going to see multiples on the same character until Epic levels. I foresee no problem.
Campaign dependent; two would cost about 10,000 xp and 120,000 gp; Wealth by level guidelines suggest 14th level as a possiblity (although unlikely....) for two.


Oh, and Epic levels get an added wrinkle on the Fighting-Priest combination -

SRD said:
Divine Power

Evocation
Level: Clr 4, War 4 Components: V, S, DF Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Personal Target: You Duration: 1 round/level

Calling upon the divine power of your patron, you imbue yourself with strength and skill in combat. Your base attack bonus becomes equal to your character level (which may give you additional attacks), you gain a +6 enhancement bonus to Strength, and you gain 1 temporary hit point per caster level.
(Emphasis added). So that 30th level cleric gains a BAB of +30/+25/+20/+15/+10/+5 (it's all character level), but the (assuming your using the ELH...) Epic Attack Bonus technically doesn't get overwritten by Divine Power - so before attack changes due to stats, weapons, et cetera, that Divine Power Cleric-30 has an attack bonus that looks like +35/+30/+25/+20/+15/+10.
 

styker said:
Where is the rule to calculate the material costs for make a metamagic rod? I hadn´t found yet in any 3.5 book, please someone could you helpme?
A close approximation of the costs can be found by multiplying three factors:
a) 1 for a lesser rod, 4 for a regular rod, and 9 for a greater rod.
b) 1 for a +1 rod, 3 for a +2 rod, 5 for a +3 rod, and 7 for a +4 rod (where the plus is the spell level increase for the metamagic feat). Expanding this we get 9 for a +5 rod and 11 for a +6 rod.
c) A base cost of 3,000 gp.

These won't get you the exact DMG values, but they'll get pretty close (except for the Lesser Rod of Quickening). So a Rod of Persistent Spell would cost 33,000 for a Lesser rod, 132,000 for a (regular) rod, and 297,000 for a Greater rod (or 2,970,000 if you use the "anything over 200k is epic and costs 10x" rule).
 

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