D&D 5E Creative Surgery

[Clint_L]

This is an obvious exploit that goes against the logic of death saves and ruins narrative cohesiveness by meta gaming. Easy veto from me, though I would applaud the creative thinking.

 

[J.Quondam]

Sounds like a good scene in a 5e version of Toon, maybe.

 

[DEFCON 1]

For me and my table... narratively it makes no sense, so rather than try and exploit a loophole in the board game mechanics to achieve the narrative result they want... the party would be told to just try and change the narrative.

I mean the very first narrative result would be that the Ranger is out of commission for the remainder of this 4 hour excursion. Yeah, it sucks to be the player of the Ranger, but that's the consequence of the actions the party took.

If the players don't want the Ranger to be sidelined for the rest of the excursion... then we will work together to create a narrative result that doesn't necessarily come out of the game mechanics. Probably something along the lines of the Ranger being able to get up and work with the party to finish this adventure, but then suffering an even graver event after its done.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Have you ever seen something like this happen at your table? What do you think about this tactic?

that exact thing, no... similar rules shenanigans yes.

I have seen the 3e bucket of water to get to 0 (well to be fair it was a river on the battle mat) and that is pretty close.

the amount of shenanigans I put up with is based on the table play... would the game be better and more fun if I allow this or less?

In your example, a very low level no healing party that could by bad rolls end up out of a time crunched adventure... I would most likely allow it with the "Keep in mind if you abuse this later I reserve the right to change the ruling for future use"


then again in 2e I used shocking grasp to restart someone heart so maybe I am not the best judge...

 

[GMforPowergamers]

The risk is rolling a nat 1 and dying due to accruing two death save fails on top of the one you already have. So it's good to be a halfling in this case since you can reroll the 1. (Or having access to anything that'll let you do some rerolls as needed.)

I have a hafling wizard that is a diviner with the lucky feat... I would jump at this trick, cause I have so many get out of jail free cards, but having said that, I still would warn about abuse

 

[aco175]

Certainly meta thinking and if I allowed it I would likely allow it to perma-kill the PC if it failed after the first or second attempt. Falls into the 'bag of rats' trick to me.

Bigger question is why a group of PCs went into a dungeon with no potions of healing. Maybe if they were 1st level or something, but they should know to be more careful if they have no potions.

Also, shouldn't the players cry foul on the DM and make up some crap about non-level encounters or at least point to something in the DMG that says each level of a dungeon must have 3-4 potions to be found.

 

[iserith]

I have a hafling wizard that is a diviner with the lucky feat... I would jump at this trick, cause I have so many get out of jail free cards, but having said that, I still would warn about abuse

I just don't see much of an issue with abuse. It's risky, particularly for non-halflings, as you can just take the L on the time pressure and not put the stable character at risk (presuming the time pressure isn't something like "you all die"). For your halfling diviner, luck is your super power so it's on brand in my view to take a chance on a dangerous magic surgery.

 

[iserith]

Certainly meta thinking and if I allowed it I would likely allow it to perma-kill the PC if it failed after the first or second attempt. Falls into the 'bag of rats' trick to me.

Bigger question is why a group of PCs went into a dungeon with no potions of healing. Maybe if they were 1st level or something, but they should know to be more careful if they have no potions.

Also, shouldn't the players cry foul on the DM and make up some crap about non-level encounters or at least point to something in the DMG that says each level of a dungeon must have 3-4 potions to be found.

As DM, the lack of preparation of the PCs is nothing I care about. If anything, I encourage it to get my body count up.

 

[Mad_Jack]

While they definitely get points for the creativity, that's also definitely pretty hardcore "bag of rats" territory - in spirit, at least, if not by RAW....

Personally, I'd apply some conditions to it if they want it to work.

First of all, on a side note, if they had any way of giving the guy temp hit points, I'd count that as good enough to bring the guy back to consciousness as long as they immediately took a short rest.

But, if they wanna try Frankenstein-ing the guy...

- They get a maximum number of attempts equal to the guy's CON score.

- Using a spell that does lightning damage gives advantage on the roll.

- Regardless of how many times the PCs try to jumpstart the guy, he will automatically end up with one level of exhaustion. For every four attempts, he gets another one.

- In the interest of saving time while making it even more interesting, the wizard casting the spell can choose to use something bigger than a cantrip to adjust the chance of success: the level of the spell used lowers the number that the ranger has to roll to get the necessary critical success by one - a 1st level spell would revive the guy to consciousness on a 19-20, 2nd level on an 18-20, etc.
So if they use a 4th or 5th level spell there's a pretty good chance of getting the guy back on his feet, but also a damn good chance of just straight-up killing him perma-dead from the damage.


In the end, it's most likely going to end up being a tradeoff of getting the ranger back but ending up with the wizard down a fair number of spell slots.

 

[Burnside]

I have never seen this, but if my players came up with it I would allow it and flavor it as trying to shock the downed character into consciousness using a dangerous form of magic defibrillation.

I do think it's a very specific edge case scenario largely caused by the unique combination of time limit scenario PLUS having a 5E party with no or very limited healing resources; the latter does happen but is quite rare in my experience.

Strictly speaking in terms of RAW, there's no question that it could indeed work.

The biggest advantage of allowing it - and it's a big one for me - is that it's a way to get the character up and the player back into the game while allowing the time-limited quest to continue.

 

[Umbran]

I have never seen this, but if my players came up with it I would allow it and flavor it as trying to shock the downed character into consciousness using a dangerous form of magic defibrillation.

My D&D is usually played in a pseudo-Medieval fantasy world, where the characters don't know what fibrillation is, much less how to defibrillate.

Moreover, the characters don't know from saving throws, or the exact rules around death saves. The saving throw does not exist in the fiction, so the character's can't reference making the saving throw happen as a reason to take the action.

So, they'd have to have a in-game, in-fiction reason to think this would work, or it is not a suitable declaration of an action.

 

[Blue Orange]

Medicine check? "There are reports in the Simbul's Second Grimoire of the damaged being returned to life by lightning, though the event has rarely been replicated..."

Shocking grasp is a cantrip now, no? "I saw this on Rescue 911..."

 

[Zubatcarteira]

Characters can be knocked out for hours by blunt force trauma and wake up completely fine with no medical assistance, their bodies just work in mysterious ways.

It'd be cool if the Medicine skill could actually be used to heal, would help with situations like this.

 

[Lanefan]

Do you suppose some particular consequence might change your perception of this approach?

It would certainly change the parameters around what their viable options might be.

For example, if it's an escape scenario and they're all dead if they don't get out within the allotted time that's quite different than if going overtime causes them to merely lose out on a small monetary reward.

 

[Burnside]

My D&D is usually played in a pseudo-Medieval fantasy world, where the characters don't know what fibrillation is, much less how to defibrillate.

Moreover, the characters don't know from saving throws, or the exact rules around death saves. The saving throw does not exist in the fiction, so the character's can't reference making the saving throw happen as a reason to take the action.

So, they'd have to have a in-game, in-fiction reason to think this would work, or it is not a suitable declaration of an action.

Just out of curiosity, if your players said their characters were trying this procedure, would you:

1. Just flat-out say, "No, your characters are not doing that."

2. Say, "Your characters can do that only if you the players can give me an in-game, in-fiction reason your characters would do it - and only if I judge that reason to be acceptable to me."

3. Actively help them come up with an in-game, in-fiction reason.

 

[Mort]

I mean, it's a fantasy world. Why not?

That's my view. The group is essentially putting the fate of their companion up to the gods - and if it wasn't a halfling it would actually be REALLY risky.

And from my point of view - sure it's a bit of a ridiculous rules exploit - but at least the players are engaged enough to try it. Hopefully it would teach them to be better prepared next time.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Just out of curiosity, if your players said their characters were trying this procedure, would you:

1. Just flat-out say, "No, your characters are not doing that."

2. Say, "Your characters can do that only if you the players can give me an in-game, in-fiction reason your characters would do it - and only if I judge that reason to be acceptable to me."

3. Actively help them come up with an in-game, in-fiction reason.

this is a super hard qustion... but if @Umbran has the buy in of his players... they just would NOT do it

 

[GMforPowergamers]

It would certainly change the parameters around what their viable options might be.

For example, if it's an escape scenario and they're all dead if they don't get out within the allotted time that's quite different than if going overtime causes them to merely lose out on a small monetary reward.

yeah this goes back to what I said about "fun at table"

we have a scenero where there is a timer... and someone got knocked out by a bad crit.... and we don't have healing, so this crazy metagame answer sounds to me like the players are REALLY saying
We want to keep playing" not "This is the best and reasonable idea"

part of me thinks I would maybe suggest they search the room... then find there are two healing potions hidden there

 

[MarkB]

I'd allow it, flavoured as trying to violently shake the character awake, but would rule that this is an extremely stressful process. For every, say, five failed death saves before regaining consciousness, the character gains one level of exhaustion.

 

[Stormonu]

Characters can be knocked out for hours by blunt force trauma and wake up completely fine with no medical assistance, their bodies just work in mysterious ways.

It'd be cool if the Medicine skill could actually be used to heal, would help with situations like this.

Yeah, why the medicine skill doesn't at least allow you to use HD to heal (after a minute of time at least, so it's not really usable in combat), I think is a tragedy. But, we can't have mundane skills do things better left to magic, I guess...