Creature Types/Subtypes & Classification

[Roman]

Roman:
Your hierarchy has the disadvantage, that it is a bunch of threads joined together. As such it is inherently one-dimensional, but D&D needs obviously a matrix as a basis (or maybe even more dimensions - depending how one looks at it).

Well, I should have specified that there would still be sub-types that would provide the 'multi-dimensionality'. It is true, however, that a multi-dimensional matrix would the optimal solution, but this is nearly unachievable in the strict sense due to the complexity, though it can be approximated through sub-types which is what all proposed systems do.

To create a true multi-dimensional matrix classification you would have to create several ways of categorizing based on themes.

You could have:

1) Phenotypical Classification - classifies creatures by their external phenotype/bodily shape
2) Anatomical Classification - classifies creatures by their internal structure/anatomy
3) Material Classification - classifies creatures by the material/substance they are made of
4) Origin Classification - classifies creatures by their evolutionary/creation lineage/descent/origin

Unless I am missing something these four classification types could together provide a relatively accurate multi-dimensional classification system. The disadvantage, however, would be increased complexity.

To all:
Noone mentioned so far an opinion, if the element-issue should be ignored or not. I won't vote for any direction, but this question should be solved, because we are relatively near by a milestone.

It is a tough issue since D&D is inconsistent with elements. Is Lightning/Electricity a D&D element? Is acid a D&D element? The D&D energy types and elements are intermeshing and inconsistent. This is not even going into the fact that some people may prefer to use their own elemental systems (the medieval European elemental system [a confused version of which forms the basis for the D&D elemental system], the Oriental elemental system, an elemental system taken from other mythological/legend systems or even an elemental system of their own creation). Hence, I think it is best to leave elements to unspecified sub-types which every DM can flash out on his own. I suppose there could be four elemental subtypes (Air, Earth, Fire and Water) described as examples.

 

[Remathilis]

Here is "my" suggestion

Normal Animal (includes giant and prehistoric)
Lowlife (insects, arachnids, fungi, slimes)
Construct
Dragon
Humanoid (including Giant Humanoids)
Planar Monster (elementals included)
Undead
Monster (everything else)

You could very easily make Fey an option too if you wanted.

It worked in the Rules Cyclopedia!

 

[Roman]

It worked in the Rules Cyclopedia!

What is the Rules Cyclopedia?

 

[Roman]

Noone mentioned so far an opinion, if the element-issue should be ignored or not. I won't vote for any direction, but this question should be solved, because we are relatively near by a milestone.

This elemental issue keeps bugging me. Fire, for example, is both an element and an energy type and as such is opposed by both water and cold. Electricity/Lighting is an energy type and is sometimes associated with air. Cold energy type is associated with ice which in turn is associated with the water element. That leaves us with sonic and acid energy types... and the earth element. The whole system is just messy.

 

[Tonguez]

Going through the Magic Descripors we get the following
ENERGY acid, cold, force, electricity, sonic,
ELEMENTAL air, earth, fire, water
POS/NEG darkness, death light,
ALIGNED chaotic, , evil, good, , lawful,
MENTAL mind-affecting, language-dependent fear,

Ignoring Alignment (for now) iI'd make Corrspondences thus

 Neutral
Earth0     Acid   
Air0         Lightning
Fire0       Heat
Water0    Cold

 Positive Energy types
Earth+     Force    = Kinetic Energy
Air+         Light    = Life
Fire+       Spirit    = Psyche (Mind affecting & language dependent)
Water+    Sound   = Waves (um)

Force - implies a Kinetic energy feild

Earth-     Body       = Base Matter
Air-        Shadow    = Death, Darkness
Fire-       Sulfur      = Alchemy*
Water-    Salt        = Alchemy*

*Alchemy - The purpose of Alchemy irl was to remove the Base Matter (Body) from a substance inorder to release the 'Spirit' its processes included

1 Calcination - burning to Ash akaSulfur
2 Sollution/Evaporation - dissolving in water, then evaporating to remove the Salts (eg Sal Ammonia)
3 Incubation - of the resulting liquid inorder to purify and release the Spirit (hence the modern word for Alcohol 'Spirits')

 

[Remathilis]

What is the Rules Cyclopedia?

http://home.flash.net/~brenfrow/dd/dd-rc.htm

Possibly the best, most complete form of D&D available.

 

[Verequus]

Don't get me wrong - I like Tonguez's new system. I also like Nellisir's idea of building monsters through classes. I just thought I would present a fourth alternative (after the official system, Tonguez's system and Nellisir's system) though.

Actually, I consider Nellisir's system as a further deconstruction of Tonguez's system - using Nellisir's one, the main types could become "subtypes" for some general alterations. It is one step further "behind the scenes".

As to the problems with Dragons, it is not difficult to give them d12 hit dice. Just say that the sub-type 'Dragon' increases the hit dice (racial hit dice only) by one step. In the case of magical beasts, the category where true dragons fall, this would increase the hit dice from d10 to d12. In case of humanoids with the dragon sub-type, the racial hit dice would be increased from d8 to d10, but humanoids tend not to have very many racial hit dice anyway. To give true dragons more skill points and all good saves is more difficult if we want to avoid specifying true dragons as different from other creatures with the dragon sub-type...

Certainly possible, "Dragon" could even give always d12s - but that could be unbalancing. Upper_Krust's Immortals' Handbook has a nifty CR-system (which is included in Grim Tales, too), but unfortunately there are only some older PDF versions of this system available, because U_K's book isn't out yet. If we could use the latest version, then the monsters can be made more balanced - as it stands, a 20+ hit-dice creature is regarding its CR 3 levels behind compared to the average 20th-level PC, because a racial hit die hasn't so much oomph as a level in a class...

Now back to the alternative system I proposed. I was considering including mindless incorporeal undead in the list, but could not think of any, so I did not. On second thoughts, however, incorporeal is probably truly better as a sub-type rather than a type within the undead category. The same is probably true of fey, though they could perhaps form a C group of manifestations (perhaps as manifestations of nature).



Creatures:


1. Constructs


2. Life

A) Amorphids
(i) Oozes
(ii) Molluscs (Invertebrates)

B) Beasts
(i) Animals (Vertebrates)
(ii) Magical Beats

C) Chitinids
(i) Arachnids
(ii) Crustaceans
(iii) Insects

D) Humanoids
(i) Humanids
(ii) Giants
(iii) Midgets (If Giants have their own category...)

E) Myconids (Fungi, Mushrooms...)

F) Plants


3. Manifestations
A) Alignmentals
B) Elementals


4. Unlife
A) Amalgations
B) Animated Body
(i) Bones
(ii) Decaying Flesh
(iii) Preserved Body
C) Spirits


*5. Abberations (Catch all for all others)*

Your use of Giant and Midget, Bones, Decaying Flesh and Preserved Body shows, that some things are better of as a subtype (Giant) or are templates, which don't have a real effect on gameplay. Consider a skeletal vampire, a vampire, which stripped off his own flesh - why should the basic stats change?

I don't feel, that your idea has a real merit. :\

The first level of types (designated by an arabic number followed by a period [1., 2., 3., 4. and 5.]) would determine some immunities and vulnerabilities, whether some spells effect the creatures concerned or not and what 'metabolic functions' the creature needs to perform to survive (breathing, eating, hydration, etc). For example, a spell that targets living creatures (such as slay living) would have no effect on Manifestations (formerly outsiders) or other non-living types.

The second level of types (designated by a capitalized letter followed by a closing bracket [A), B), C), D), E) and F)]) would determine more vulnerabilities and immunities (such as whether the creature is susceptible to critical hits), the effect or lack thereof of certain spells and the size of racial hit dice.

The third level of types (designated by a non-capitalized Roman numeral in a bracket [(i), (ii) and (iii)]) would determine the creature's saves, BAB and skill points, as well as some final immunities and vulnerabilities particularly with respect to susceptibility or lack thereof to certain spells.

For types that are only one level deep the first level type I can envision two possibilities:

1) First level type would determine all the above information
2) The 'missing' information would be determined for creatures individually

The same principle applies to types that are two levels deep. Also new types of third level (or perhaps even second level) can easily be added in this system if necessary.

Sub-types would exist as they do now, though there would also be a 'Dragon' sub-type and perhaps several more that would need to be added.

Next to the feeeling, that I've entered some kind of period system, you've demonstrated a real big problem. You have splitted the core type definition over the place to give every layer a meaning, but for Constructs you can't do that. Either you leave it by the core definition, or you create for the DM not only more homework, but also erode some standards and thus you defy some assumptions, which have been piled up in the last few years...

Either way, your idea is neither fish nor flesh - and I don't see, how to overcome the obstacles.

Well, I should have specified that there would still be sub-types that would provide the 'multi-dimensionality'. It is true, however, that a multi-dimensional matrix would the optimal solution, but this is nearly unachievable in the strict sense due to the complexity, though it can be approximated through sub-types which is what all proposed systems do.

To create a true multi-dimensional matrix classification you would have to create several ways of categorizing based on themes.

You could have:

1) Phenotypical Classification - classifies creatures by their external phenotype/bodily shape
2) Anatomical Classification - classifies creatures by their internal structure/anatomy
3) Material Classification - classifies creatures by the material/substance they are made of
4) Origin Classification - classifies creatures by their evolutionary/creation lineage/descent/origin

Unless I am missing something these four classification types could together provide a relatively accurate multi-dimensional classification system. The disadvantage, however, would be increased complexity.

I agree - a true matrix solution is both good enough approximated and too complex for the average needs.

Going through the Magic Descripors we get the following
ENERGY acid, cold, force, electricity, sonic,
ELEMENTAL air, earth, fire, water
POS/NEG darkness, death light,
ALIGNED chaotic, , evil, good, , lawful,
MENTAL mind-affecting, language-dependent fear,

Ignoring Alignment (for now) iI'd make Corrspondences thus

What is your goal with this? Redoing the element subtypes for creatures? Or for spells? Or for both?

Neutral
Earth0 Acid
Air0 Lightning
Fire0 Heat
Water0 Cold



Positive Energy types
Earth+ Force = Kinetic Energy
Air+ Light = Life
Fire+ Spirit = Psyche (Mind affecting & language dependent)
Water+ Sound = Waves (um)


Force - implies a Kinetic energy feild


Earth- Body = Base Matter
Air- Shadow = Death, Darkness
Fire- Sulfur = Alchemy*
Water- Salt = Alchemy*

*Alchemy - The purpose of Alchemy irl was to remove the Base Matter (Body) from a substance inorder to release the 'Spirit' its processes included

1 Calcination - burning to Ash akaSulfur
2 Sollution/Evaporation - dissolving in water, then evaporating to remove the Salts (eg Sal Ammonia)
3 Incubation - of the resulting liquid inorder to purify and release the Spirit (hence the modern word for Alcohol 'Spirits')

For creature subtypes it doesn't seem suited. So the first and the last option drop out. I still don't see, why are you trying to map the elements to the other types. Element(+/0/-) + x = y? And the results of equations are awkward - I have real difficulties to understand the last four without Darkness and Death (with should remain both distinctive). Even if I wouldn't already use another magic system, I would be reluctant to consider such a change in my game. I really don't see the benefits.

Here is "my" suggestion

Normal Animal (includes giant and prehistoric)
Lowlife (insects, arachnids, fungi, slimes)
Construct
Dragon
Humanoid (including Giant Humanoids)
Planar Monster (elementals included)
Undead
Monster (everything else)

You could very easily make Fey an option too if you wanted.

It worked in the Rules Cyclopedia!

I am still in favor of Tonguez's system - it is nearer of my envisioned "perfection" than yours. Your proposal lacks subtypes (AD&D didn't have them, so taking something from it requires conversion/substituting of things, which are otherwise unnecessary - what are the saves, for example), is too similar to Tonguez (-> can be changed to his propasal) and Tonguez has put a bit more logic in the dividing of types (well, the types are from an older edition - types didn't really matter as much as now).

 

[Tonguez]

I don't know how to make a table so its not entirely clear

but I was trying to reduce everything down to the four 'classical' elements and how each of the energy typescorresponde to them

so we have

ELEMENT - base type, neutral corespondent, positive correspondent+, negative correspondent-
(neutral form is the corresponding energy type)

which (assuming we are attempting a unifying system) translates as

EARTH Earth, Acid, Force, Body/Matter
AIR Air, Lightning, Light, Shadow
FIRE Fire, Heat, Spirit, Sulfur (Poison)
WATER Water, Cold, Sonic, Salt

This needs lots of work and my thoughts aren't entirely clear but lets try

Earth subtype Earth creatures always have a burrow speed and can burrow through solid rock. Earth creatures with energy attack forms usually use Acid or Force (includes slam) attacks. Earth creatures are vunerable to sonic attacks and have immunities to Acid

Water subtype Water creatures always have a swim speed and do not require swim checks. Water creatures with energy attack forms usually use cold or sonic attacks. Water creatures are vunerable to Heat attacks and have immunities to Cold

Air subtype Air creatures always have a fly speed and perfect manouverability. Air creatures with energy attack forms usually use Lightning or Shadow attacks. Air creatures are vunerable to Force attacks and have immunities to Lightning

Fire subtypeFire creatures have a climb speed and do not require climb checks. Fire creatures with energy attack forms usually use Heat or Poison gas attacks. Fire creatures are vunerable to Cold attacks and have immunities to Heat

 

[Verequus]

I don't know how to make a table so its not entirely clear

It is simple - use between the code tags enough spaces at the appropriate spaces - preview and adjust as appropriate. It took me for my table around an hour, but it should more easy for you.

but I was trying to reduce everything down to the four 'classical' elements and how each of the energy typescorresponde to them

so we have

ELEMENT - base type, neutral corespondent, positive correspondent+, negative correspondent-
(neutral form is the corresponding energy type)

which (assuming we are attempting a unifying system) translates as

EARTH Earth, Acid, Force, Body/Matter
AIR Air, Lightning, Light, Shadow
FIRE Fire, Heat, Spirit, Sulfur (Poison)
WATER Water, Cold, Sonic, Salt

In principle, your idea is good. But some your corresponding elements are simple not appropriate for a D&D fantasy-feel (Body/Matter) or are weird or not easily graspable (Sulfur, Salt). I don't, why they are all on the negative side of your charts.

This needs lots of work and my thoughts aren't entirely clear but lets try

Earth subtype Earth creatures always have a burrow speed and can burrow through solid rock. Earth creatures with energy attack forms usually use Acid or Force (includes slam) attacks. Earth creatures are vunerable to sonic attacks and have immunities to Acid

Water subtype Water creatures always have a swim speed and do not require swim checks. Water creatures with energy attack forms usually use cold or sonic attacks. Water creatures are vunerable to Heat attacks and have immunities to Cold

Air subtype Air creatures always have a fly speed and perfect manouverability. Air creatures with energy attack forms usually use Lightning or Shadow attacks. Air creatures are vunerable to Force attacks and have immunities to Lightning

Fire subtypeFire creatures have a climb speed and do not require climb checks. Fire creatures with energy attack forms usually use Heat or Poison gas attacks. Fire creatures are vunerable to Cold attacks and have immunities to Heat

For a better understanding: What is the difference in use between your propasal and the core rules respectively my proposal and what are the benefits and disadvantages of every possibility? In fact, I see only the benefit, that the relations between the elements are more defined and logically explained - but EoMR does the same. Okay, maybe your explanation is more sophisticated, but I don't see, that this is an advantage (with your clinging to the standards and filling the gaps with some (from my view) dubious inventions). BTW, you have left out Spirit, Body/Matter, Light and Salt in your explanation of the several types.