Critical Hits for Undead, Constructs...

Keep in mind that a lucky longsword hit can do eight times as much damage as a less-lucky one (1d8).

A lucky lightning bolt blast can inflict twelve times as much damage as a less-lucky one (xd6 damage, with only 1/2x on a successful save and all 1s on the dice and 6x on a failed save and all 6s).

Lucky and/or precise blows are already accounted for in the variable damage system. Critical hits (hits to vulnerable spots) represent an additional level of precision damage that doesn't work on beings with no vulnerable spots.

Is this reminding anyone else of Galaxy Quest?
 

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There are feats called "know the secret: undead" or something like that. They allow criticals and sneak damage to undead or constructs I think. someone else might know more.

GE
 

In modern mythology undead usually do have vital spots, a stake through the heart for a vampire, a helicopter rotor-blade through the brain for a zombie, a quick push off a cliff for a skeleton....well you know what I mean. You can explain it logically either way, but rules is rules.

The netbook of feats has 3 feats, one for corporeal undead, one for incorporeal undead, and one for constructs, which allow you to sneak attack and critical hit these creatures. I guess allowing these feats would mean that you would be assuming a different kind of internal structure than the ooze idea.
 

As DM I'd probably go Crit on Golem allows 'called shot' "okay Ash swings the chainsaw through its left thigh" and then require massive damage for it to be effective "the Zombie collapses in a heap at your feet"
 

First off -- if you're describing a critical hit as opening the victim from shoulder to groin, you're probably not doing it right.

If that hit left the person alive with positive hit points, then he's functioning at no penalty -- so it's a thin slash that draws blood, will need to be looked at later, but isn't putting him down for the count.

If that hit left him in the early negatives (-2, -3), then he's down and dying but nowhere near dead, which means that it's a bloody wound to the shoulder or a glancing blow to the head. With decent medical care, without even magic, he'll be fine.

If that hit killed him (-10 to -19 or so), then it's a cleaving blow that did about what you describe.

If that hit took him to -20 or greater, than maybe it bisected the poor guy or sent guts flying off in all different directions, making raising difficult because of lost body parts.

If someone has 90 hit points and you do a critical hit that does 30 points damage, you've grazed their neck with a slash that could have very easily killed them outright. You've left them flustered at being so nearly killed, you've thrown off their balance and made them more cautious, possibly opening them to later, more deadly strikes (as evidenced by the fact that they have fewer hit points now, and ANOTHER 30-point shot will hurt them MORE than the first one did).

All that aside, it's fine to House Rule crits on undead or constructs for specific purposes.

Examples:

I made a special weapon that was essentially a dagger made to work the tools that create golems. It had the magical ability to bypass golem DR, did extra damage against them (construct-bane), and could deliver critical hits to any construct, as its blade sought the special edges and vital spots that ordinary heroes would never find.

I liked the flavor text about Vampires being vulnerable to stakes and decapitation, so I allowed vorpal weapons to score critical hits on them, and I made stakes do 1d4 piercing, 20/x2. On a crit, the vamp had to make a Fort save DC 15 or get dusted. If the vamp made its save, it was affected as though by a normal critical hit, as the stake very nearly turned it to dust and certainly messed up its undeadliness. It was in all other ways immune to crits, since those were its magical weaknesses.

In d20 Modern, there's a sample adventure with zombies. The zombies can only be killed by having their heads cut off (or something like that, I can't entirely remember offhand and am too lazy to look it up). Unless the head is cut off, they come back together after a few hours and rise again. The guide essentially says, "Decapitation can be performed on a zombie at 0 hit points or less, but occurs automatically on a critical hit. Zombies are ordinarily immune to critical hits, but if a player who knows the zombie's weakness (by having been told about it) rolls a hit that would normally have been a critical, the zombie is decapitated and instantly killed." A person who doesn't know about the zombie's weaknesses can't crit them, but the special knowledge and plot-specific info makes it possible in this case.

So if you feel like doing that, more power to you. But don't make it an always-on thing. The CR for these creatures assumes that they aren't getting critted terribly often. Most of the guys who don't get critted don't have Con scores -- they don't have THAT many hit points, so letting someone do double or triple normal damage on a crit is gonna whittle them down a lot faster than usual.
 

Geez. You people seem to grow so heated.

IMHO I'd say the best way to do this is giving the Undead, Oozes, and Constructs 'Fortification' as the DMG says. This way you have a chance to bash out the zombie's spine thus compromising it's efficiency and making it more likely to fall (die). I'm sure you all thought of this, but I didn't see anyone write it so I thought I would. I'd might even go so far as to allow a skill check as a full round action to study the opponent to negate or decrease the chance of Critical Failure.

Meh... That's my two cents...
 

Re: What????

Aeris Winterood said:
It is a game.... and I think I shall allow massive damage in mine! heheheee

I was hoping someone would convince me that my thinking was wrong.. but no one has yet...

...and I predict no one will. The game is built with balance in mind (even if they don't always achieve it in perfection). One of the biggest problem with critical hit charts from all eras of D&D is that sooner of later the odds catch up with the player characters and they lose. Instituting massive damage into a game that isn't built to balalnce it will ultimately wind up in far greater character deaths and will change the game significantly. Good luck but don't say you weren't warned... :p
 

Personally I don't allow those feats that allow someone to crit a construct or undead. I would never allow the massive damage rule to be applied to them, but even if it was, undead and constructs don't have to make Fortitude saves unless the description of the effect specifically states that it affects "objects." In which case having no constitution at all, they most likely fail (Disintegrate Spell). The thing that keeps these suckers coming is not the materials that they are made of, it's the mystical forces that bind them together. After all if you look at a skeleton, without the flesh there it doesn't stay together on its own, at all.... same thing with a Brass Golem, it's not a clockwork device made of Brass, it's a Brass Statue that is animated and bound together by magical forces. you can't get in a critical shot because the magical forces, unlike a load bearing wall, don't have any vulnerable spots. Or more precisely, no exceptionally vulnerable spots... In fact you could take your staff of yew and beat on an iron statue all day long and all you'll have is a broken staff at the end of the day. Don't think your rapier is surviving a forceful encounter with an Iron statue either.

The point is the games have a semi-reasonable explanation within their own idiom and they balance the game to make it more enjoyable for everyone, so if you disagree go ahead and make Undead just another collection of hit points for your Rogues to take out easily. But while you're at it, why not let Clerics turn mean people? Or pirates or Barbarians?

"By The Lord of Civilization and Philately I cast thee barbarian hordes back to the steppes from which thou didst come!!!"

Bleh....
 

Re: Vital organs....

Aeris Winterood said:
I do agree with all of you who have posted.... and am aware of what the rule states.... I still have a hard time with it....

Ditto. Heck, in many bad monster movies, if you shoot a zombie through the brain it stops functioning. Also, some magical constructs were powered by a magical gem or other power source. Smack the source, and the construct goes inert.

Of course, if you can crit an undead, you should be able to do even more damage to a human being...


Cedric.
aka. Washu! ^O^
 

Thunderstorm:
3e alreay has massive damage rules. Take more than 50 points of damage in a single hit, make a fortitude save (DC15) or die.

As takyris was saying d20 Modern adds some 'extras' to undead. Vampires has a vunrability to wood. If you crit a vampire with a 'wooden stake' (broken pool cues, table leg etc) it dies.

You could give Constructs / undead special weaknesses. So that if you crit them with a special weakness either treat crit as a normal crit or an instant kill.
 

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