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D&D 5E CRs and what is going on?
- Thread starter MontyKC1974
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lowkey13
Guest
*Deleted by user*
Balor = cupcake
WOW - this is the exact scenario I had w/my players just about; 6 PCs and 3 NPCs at L7 put a beat-down on a Balor. It sparked a gigantic internal debate among my players and I, followed by problem solving to find what went wrong. In our estimation, here are the relevant issues:
1) Long rest=party wins vs anyone: Normally 9x L7s would be considered CR 12 (CR7 plus 5 extra PCs) and my PCs can normally handle guys 2 levels above (so CR 14 in this case), 6-8 times/day. 4 levels higher 4 boss encounters. But in 5e, PCs seem to be able to handle about 6 levels higher if they got all their pills to pop, ie just after a long rest (which they had just had). So in other words, in 5e I need CR 18 to challenge a party this size in a long-rest-preceded boss fight.
2) MANY MM CRs are waaaay off CR rating of Balor 19?!?! He gets only 2 attacks/turn other than aura, doing only 36 dmg. That means they are likely to be unable to 1-shot anyone. So throw in 2x L3 healing spells on PC turns and the PC is good as new. He basically has the damage output of a L10 PC. And his AC (19) is preposterously equivalent to a L10 rogue. Damage resistance vs non-magical weapons?[/B] really? useless vs. PCs past level 3-9 when they get magical weapons.
Solutions we implemented:
1) As a DM, I now try to find plausible ways of controlling rests so that featured battles aren't preceded by a long rest - or in some cases throw a dude 6 CRs higher at them if I plausibly encourage a long rest first.
2) Made Damage resistance for monsters effective vs non-magical weapons up to CR 4, vs all but +2/+3 weapons at CR 5-11, all but +3 weapons at CR 12-18, and all but legendary if CR 19+. That way it means a PC or 2 might have an appropriate magic item, but not all.
4) Revised AC and attacks for dozens of MM creatures to actually be comparable to a PC of the same level, in some cases adding powers and in others adding legendary actions.
My final Balor had AC 25 (not 19), has DR vs all but legendary weapons, gets 4 (not 2) attacks/round w/whip or longsword, and gets legendary actions (3/turn, telekenisis, summon dretches, teleport, 1/day firestorm). Arguably roughly equivalent to a L19 PC, and legitimately fear/awe inspiring to a group of 9x L7 PC/NPCs.
WOW - this is the exact scenario I had w/my players just about; 6 PCs and 3 NPCs at L7 put a beat-down on a Balor. It sparked a gigantic internal debate among my players and I, followed by problem solving to find what went wrong. In our estimation, here are the relevant issues:
1) Long rest=party wins vs anyone: Normally 9x L7s would be considered CR 12 (CR7 plus 5 extra PCs) and my PCs can normally handle guys 2 levels above (so CR 14 in this case), 6-8 times/day. 4 levels higher 4 boss encounters. But in 5e, PCs seem to be able to handle about 6 levels higher if they got all their pills to pop, ie just after a long rest (which they had just had). So in other words, in 5e I need CR 18 to challenge a party this size in a long-rest-preceded boss fight.
2) MANY MM CRs are waaaay off CR rating of Balor 19?!?! He gets only 2 attacks/turn other than aura, doing only 36 dmg. That means they are likely to be unable to 1-shot anyone. So throw in 2x L3 healing spells on PC turns and the PC is good as new. He basically has the damage output of a L10 PC. And his AC (19) is preposterously equivalent to a L10 rogue. Damage resistance vs non-magical weapons?[/B] really? useless vs. PCs past level 3-9 when they get magical weapons.
Solutions we implemented:
1) As a DM, I now try to find plausible ways of controlling rests so that featured battles aren't preceded by a long rest - or in some cases throw a dude 6 CRs higher at them if I plausibly encourage a long rest first.
2) Made Damage resistance for monsters effective vs non-magical weapons up to CR 4, vs all but +2/+3 weapons at CR 5-11, all but +3 weapons at CR 12-18, and all but legendary if CR 19+. That way it means a PC or 2 might have an appropriate magic item, but not all.
4) Revised AC and attacks for dozens of MM creatures to actually be comparable to a PC of the same level, in some cases adding powers and in others adding legendary actions.
My final Balor had AC 25 (not 19), has DR vs all but legendary weapons, gets 4 (not 2) attacks/round w/whip or longsword, and gets legendary actions (3/turn, telekenisis, summon dretches, teleport, 1/day firestorm). Arguably roughly equivalent to a L19 PC, and legitimately fear/awe inspiring to a group of 9x L7 PC/NPCs.
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FormerlyHemlock
Hero
Eh? Two swords plus whip, total of three for IIRC 90 points of damage not counting fire aura. Not 36.
What was the CR on your revised Balor?
Shadowdweller00
Hero
As listed in the MM, the balor gets ONE sword and ONE whip attack. For a combined average damage of 59, more than 36 but not anywhere close to the 99+ figure quoted by some parties here as far as I can see. (Longsword - 21 slashing and 13 lightning; whip - 15 slashing and 10 fire). A GM -might- be able to skew the damage upward a little bit if they reason that the balor can hoist the enemy up into the air for a bit of falling damage or that an enemy that is pulled against the fire aura takes that damage as well (a whopping 10 points fire). Regardless, the damage is STILL pathetic for a CR 19 combat beast.
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In MM, Balor gets 1 whip (25 dmg) + 1 longsword (34 dmg), total 59 damage (edit!) (IF both hit- vs ac19 chances of both hitting is 64%, far from 100%). Bear in mind aura damage is only start of Balor turn, and only 10 dmg.
My revised Balor was CR 19.
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Scorpio616
First Post
What it comes down to is DMs need to shake off the notions of lone foes somehow taking on large groups. Big tough enemies by themselves are bags of XP, a tasty, if conceivably, dangerous treat for players.
Demons have minions, Casters have cultists and Dragons have mates and young. And NEVER forget
Demons have minions, Casters have cultists and Dragons have mates and young. And NEVER forget
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Gillywonka
First Post
Hmm, well, CR is just a guideline, but did you play the Balor as a evil sadistic killer? When one of the PCs went down, didn't he follow up with the killing stab? That's one PC KIA.
I'm not sure what the terrain or lair looked like, but did the Balor hear the party coming? If so, he should have been prepared... surprise the party and get a surprise attack in. The Balor can fly and he has a 10' weapon reach, did he hover and stab down, while staying out of range of a return swing (unless the PCs had reach of course).
Someone mentioned this, but he should also have been teleporting to the rear and getting a surprise attack or at least advantage on his target, maybe a spell user. Then also use the terrain to his advantage. Teleport to a corridor so party has to come single file, and when they do, again, teleport to the rear and stay engaged with the spell caster until he's dead. If a party attacks a Balor, dont hesitate to kill the PC if they go down... no script immunity. Heck, make the Balor a 19th level barbarian (CR 19) as well with all the accompanying skills. Anyway, just thinking out loud. As long as you all had fun is what ultimately matters.
I'm not sure what the terrain or lair looked like, but did the Balor hear the party coming? If so, he should have been prepared... surprise the party and get a surprise attack in. The Balor can fly and he has a 10' weapon reach, did he hover and stab down, while staying out of range of a return swing (unless the PCs had reach of course).
Someone mentioned this, but he should also have been teleporting to the rear and getting a surprise attack or at least advantage on his target, maybe a spell user. Then also use the terrain to his advantage. Teleport to a corridor so party has to come single file, and when they do, again, teleport to the rear and stay engaged with the spell caster until he's dead. If a party attacks a Balor, dont hesitate to kill the PC if they go down... no script immunity. Heck, make the Balor a 19th level barbarian (CR 19) as well with all the accompanying skills. Anyway, just thinking out loud. As long as you all had fun is what ultimately matters.
FormerlyHemlock
Hero
Reading comprehension FAIL on my part then. I glanced at it the other night and I remember being surprised that it had more offensive power than I thought; I probably misread "two attacks; one with longsword and one with whip" as "two attacks with longsword and one with whip." Thanks for the correction.
@shoak1, I did a quick BOTE calculation to see how you derived that and came up with CR 21 instead of 19.
59*2 melee + 20 aura + 140/3 death burst + 70/3 flame storm = 208 DPR = offensive CR 24 +1 for +14 to attack = offensive CR 25
262 HP (resistance multiplier is x1) = Defensive CR 13 + 3 for +6 to AC +1 for MR = Defensive CR 17
Average(17,25) = 21
However, I wouldn't mind stealing your modifications to the Balor and just bumping up the CR appropriately. I'll probably justify the AC boost by giving the Balor Fiendish Blessing like a Cambion. Conveniently, the Balor's CHA is exactly +6. Consequence: if the PCs manage to Feeblemind the Balor, it gets significantly easier to kill. I like that.
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Takes two stabs to kill someone in 5E. Balor gets one longsword attack per action.
How do you get surprise on a Lore Bard or Rogue with a Passive Perception of around 17 to 18 at level 7. Balor does not have the Stealth skill and only a +2 from Dex.
Cast fly spell on melee. Flight doesn't matter at all to ranged attackers. You can ground the Balor by reducing its speed to zero, which there are multiple ways to accomplish.
A balor gets to teleport as an action. So you're saying use its action to teleport rather than attack? That is completely in the party's favor. It can only teleport 120 feet per action.
I'd make the balor more like a balor. It's the most powerful demon other than the lords in the abyss. No idea why it was made so weak in 5E.
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