Crunch Versus Fluff

[KarinsDad]

I am really into most of the crunch changes that I am reading for 4E (i.e. game mechanic changes), but I am not into most of the fluff changes (e.g. removal of races and classes, and putting in new ones).

So I thought, I must be getting old.

However, I decided to go back to previous versions and see what has changed, and see if I am just too set in my ways. I don't have my OD&D books readily available, so I will only go back to 1E.

1E

Assassin, Cleric, Druid, Fighter, Illusionist, Magic User, Monk, Paladin, Ranger, Thief

2E

Bard, Cleric, Druid, Fighter, Illusionist, Mage, Paladin, Ranger, Thief

(dropped 2, added 1)

3E

Barbarian, Bard, Cleric, Druid, Fighter, Monk, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue, Sorcerer, Wizard

(dropped/changed 1, added 2, re-added 1)

4E (partial speculation)

Cleric, Fighter, Paladin, Rogue, Ranger, Warlock, Warlord, Wizard

(dropped 4, added 2)

So far, 4E appears to be cutting Druid that has been in all 3 previous editions, Monk and Bard which have been in 2 previous editions.


1E

Dwarves, Elves, Gnomes, Half Elves, Halflings, Half-Orcs, Humans

2E

Dwarves, Elves, Gnomes, Half Elves, Halflings, Humans

(dropped 1)

3E

Dwarves, Elves, Gnomes, Half Elves, Halflings, Half-Orcs, Humans

(re-added 1)


4E (partial speculation)

Dwarves, Eladrin, Elves, Half Elves, Halflings, Half-Orcs?, Humans, Tieflings

(Dropped 1 or 2, Added 2)


After looking at this (and understanding that it might be in error somewhat), I do think that both classes and races are being chewed up and spit out for 4E. The races especially. Races were hardly changed in the game system at all in the first 3 editions.

Is it change for change sake? Or to get new blood into the game?

I doubt the latter because nobody who does not play the game is really going to know that WotC changed this stuff.


So, I do think that my concerns are valid. The changing of the fluff stuff appears to be fairly deep when about 33% of classes and races are being changed. At least IMO. I foresee a lot of difficulty converting all of the PCs for many campaigns and sometimes being forced to restart from scratch.

 

[Li Shenron]

I don't understand how it would help get new blood... Those who haven't played the game before won't even know what has changed. And also very unlikely that someone hasn't played D&D previous edition specifically "because there were no Warlocks/Warlords".

 

[Daztur]

I don't care terribly much about the specific flavor since I can reflavor things and make my own flavor much more easily than I can make my own mechanics...

 

[Glyfair]

I am really into most of the crunch changes that I am reading for 4E (i.e. game mechanic changes), but I am not into most of the fluff changes (e.g. removal of races and classes, and putting in new ones).

Just to be clear, they aren't actually removing any races, and likely no classes. They just won't appear in the PHB I. However, I know that every previous D&D race will be published soon after the initial 3 books (stated in an interview). I would be surprised if all the classes don't appear within a year (the bard being the only question mark).

I agree that the limited game set based on just the PHB, MM & DMG will be more limited than before. However, it does seem that the big change is in the way the game is developed. There certainly seems to be less of a strict divide between the core books* and the supplements. I think there will be fewer "core rules only" games now, although that definition might change.

I do expect that all the previous core D&D races and classes will make it into the SRD at some time. If not than the market will be flooded with variations on the missing classes (and races) as d20 companies try to get open versions to use in their games. If WotC doesn;t release an open druid than Paizo will have a druid, Goodman Games will have a druid, Green Ronin will have a druid, etc. What might happen is the core rules only games will become "SRD only" games.

* In this post all uses of "core rules" mean those in the PHB I, DMG I & MM I.

 

[Jhaelen]

Is it change for change sake? Or to get new blood into the game?

I doubt the latter because nobody who does not play the game is really going to know that WotC changed this stuff.

I doubt the former, as well.
Imho, what they are striving to do is to provide for a broad base of diverse classes/races within the limited confines of the book that is PHB1.

Since it's also an expressed goal to make the combat roles of classes more transparent, they'll obviously choose classes that are the most 'pure' representatives of these roles.

Regarding their choice of races, I am actually a bit surprised they didn't include drow. But maybe they polarize too much. You either love or hate them.
If they include 8 races, it's possible that each of them is a natural choice for one of the included classes, though I am not sure that would be something I'd like to see.

 

[KarinsDad]

I think there will be fewer "core rules only" games now, although that definition might change.

...

* In this post all uses of "core rules" mean those in the PHB I, DMG I & MM I.

I'm hoping the opposite.

I'm hoping I can convince my group to stick with the 3 core 4E books plus Psionics for all of our crunch (with the exception of other MM books for the DM's NPCs).

Then, use 3.5 versions of FR or Eberron or whatever for campaign fluff (but not for any crunch like PrCs or feats or anything).

I'm hoping to get away from the game of the last 3 years where there would be 12 to 30 DND books in the vicinity of the gaming table.

If there could be only 6 books or so at the table, that would be sweet.

 

[WayneLigon]

I don't really think of the removal/addition of the classes and races mix to be all that much of a problem, or even really that great a change to the game. For a long time there, I thought - hoped - that we'd just have Fighter, Wizard and Rogue. Then do all the other class variants with feats, interchangable class features, and talent trees. No need to ever publish a new class; in effect they'd give you almost every class possible in the core book. Eh, maybe in 5E.

I can live without any of other classes save the four basic classes; save those for themed supplements. That would cut down the size and expense of the core books.

The race additions and deletions don't really matter too much to me. Never missed the half-orc, didn't much notice him when he came back.