Cry Havoc: Opinions?

[ptolemy18]

I'm still a little confused as to what the different systems are like. It sounds like SLAVELORDS is, possibly, too large-scale and CRY HAVOC is, possibly, too small-scale.

What I want is to be able to run mass military battles in the scale of hundreds or thousands (or hundreds vs. thousands), with the option of having single large creatures (like dragons, or powerful PCs/NPCs) enter the fray and kick butt.

(I've already run a battle of PCs vs. 30 gnolls using the regular miniatures combat rules, so small engagements of under 100 troops don't interest me as much.)

The only mass combat system I've seen is TESTAMENT, and I kind of liked it, but I wish it had offered more solid rules for large-scale magic and monsters, as well as at least SOME rules for moving the units relative to one another and terrain. (i.e., what if there's a bottleneck situation? What if one unit is defending a fort? Etc. etc... none of that's covered in TESTAMENT.)

I want SOME sense of "forces moving relative to one another and terrain", even if it's just something I can draw on a chalkboard rather than having to move miniatures around.

What's the BLACK COMPANY and FIELDS OF BLOOD rules like?

Jason

 

[ptolemy18]

What I want is to be able to run mass military battles in the scale of hundreds or thousands (or hundreds vs. thousands), with the option of having single large creatures (like dragons, or powerful PCs/NPCs) enter the fray and kick butt.

...and I mean kick butt on a round-based (or some kind of turn-based) basis, rather than just inputting the "values" of all the combatants and then suddenly announcing "Okay! You charge into battle, and your side wins!"

Jason

 

[Lucias]

Fields of Blood is a bit less abstract than the Slavelords mass combat, but takes a bit more time to work out. I think both of them are good, but the big problem for me is that FoB system introduces new skills that are used frequently in the combats, so it's hard to just drop it in to an ongoing campaign. I love the Realm rules in FoB and hope to run a campaign of it someday, I'm just not too sold on the mass combat system.

Slavelords Mass Combat does not include any new skill or feats and is much more easy to just plug and play. Also, Slavelords looks as if it can handle just about any size battle. You could use it for hundreds or you can use it for thousands and thousands. Plus, even if you have thousands and thousands you can still have a solo dragon flying around and wreaking havok with its breath weapon. The battle system itself is based on a d20 mechanic (you can see an example under one of my recent posts in the rules forum, Wulf gave a great rundown) and while it abstracts some things, you still have movement, manouvers, and everything that makes combat fun. It's also made for use with or without minis/counters. It's all there and it's under $2

 

[Gundark]

Does anywhere else besides RPGnow sell this pdf? I have to buy extra stuff due to "cost of processing"

 

[TerraDave]

...and I mean kick butt on a round-based (or some kind of turn-based) basis, rather than just inputting the "values" of all the combatants and then suddenly announcing "Okay! You charge into battle, and your side wins!"

Jason

Ptolemy: I have taken a more thorough look at the Bad-Axe offering. As written, you can throw pretty much anything in there on any scale. It is a little abstract (hence the flexibility), but does work for manuevering units on a battle map or tabletop (or not). One thing, it encourages the use of hex-grid battlemap

 

[ptolemy18]

Ptolemy: I have taken a more thorough look at the Bad-Axe offering. As written, you can throw pretty much anything in there on any scale. It is a little abstract (hence the flexibility), but does work for manuevering units on a battle map or tabletop (or not). One thing, it encourages the use of hex-grid battlemap

I haven't checked out Bad Axe's Slavelords thing, but frankly:

(1) Hex-grid? How old-school! No thanks...
(2) I can't bring myself to use something that simplifies opposing forces down to their CR/EL. (So an army of 100 3rd-level wizards has the same values as an army of 100 3rd-level fighters!?!?) Ugh. Bleach. WAY too simplified. :/

The addition of new skills in Fields of Blood also sounds unwelcoming... hmmm...

Jason

 

[Lucias]

I haven't checked out Bad Axe's Slavelords thing, but frankly:

(1) Hex-grid? How old-school! No thanks...
(2) I can't bring myself to use something that simplifies opposing forces down to their CR/EL. (So an army of 100 3rd-level wizards has the same values as an army of 100 3rd-level fighters!?!?) Ugh. Bleach. WAY too simplified. :/
Jason

1) A hex grid can be used, but is in no way required. The system works equally well on squares, hexes, or with no map at all. The system has easy adjustments for playstyle.

2) It's abstract, but not that abstract. Your army of wizards would most likely be a magical dedicated unit, so it has the ability to REALLY blow some stuff up. It's accounted for.

 

[Old One]

1) A hex grid can be used, but is in no way required. The system works equally well on squares, hexes, or with no map at all. The system has easy adjustments for playstyle.

2) It's abstract, but not that abstract. Your army of wizards would most likely be a magical dedicated unit, so it has the ability to REALLY blow some stuff up. It's accounted for.

What he said...

Battlemat, no battlemat, squares, hexes...it's all good and all work equally well. One of your concerns seems to be that everything is boiled down to a simple CR/EL calculation. While that is the basis of the system, it allows for:

• A variety of dedicated units with special abilities - aerial, magical, cavalary, missile, teleporting, phalanx, skirmish, etc. A dedicated magical unit (such as a group of wizards or clerics) will have a huge potential impact on the battlefield assuming they have decent area of affect spells capable of causing damage. For instance, the base BR of a unit of 10 5th level mages with a 7th level leader is BR 17. However, since most of them can toss around fireballs (at least for a while) provides them a BR bonus of up to +11 (depending on the size unit they are attacking) - providing a total attack roll of 1d20+17+11. If they were attack a unit of elite guards (250 3rd level warriors led by 5 5th level sergeants and 1 9th level captain - Total BR of 24), the DC to cause damage would be 10+24=34. With a +29 bonus, they will cause damage on any roll over a 5 and have the potential to really tear it up.
• A variety of "heroic actions" available to the PCs, including Heroic Charge (going after the enemy commander, Heroic Sacrifice (trading a % of hit points to lessen unit losses), Devestating Magic (a mid-to-high level PC with big mojo can crush enemy units), Healing Magic and Support Magic.

I have spent the last couple of days playing around with a number of different scenarios of varying sizes...from straight up fights between non-magical troops to all manner of strange and exotic units. The ease of creating units (which will be even easier once Wulf unlocks the spreadsheet :\ ), the number of well-thought out strategic and tactical options and the quick game play make it a real winner, IMO.

The only minor quibble I have with it is that I would like to see a bit more robust morale rules (easily fixed) and a bit more expansion of the command rules and use of sub-commanders.

~ Old One

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

One thing, it encourages the use of hex-grid battlemap

This is the extent of the hex-map encouragement:
You may use a battle mat marked with either squares or, preferably, hexes.

The rest of the work pretty much assumes you're using squares (and the illustration reflects this).

Apparently I went over the top in my hex-grid enthusiasm.


Wulf

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

I can't bring myself to use something that simplifies opposing forces down to their CR/EL.

You mean, like, the d20 core rules?

How do you plan encounters or award experience?

If your PCs are playing a party of four 3rd level wizards and they come up against four 3rd level fighters, you just, what? Don't give them any XP?

Too easy?

The wizards wipe the floor with the fighters every time, right?

Does it change anything if they do this 10, 20, 100 times in a row?

Cause the core rules say that's a difficult encounter-- evenly matched EL.


Wulf