Cthulhu, Guns, and a Sanity Check

Funny you should mention that...


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(Speaking of dubious, the English cult ceremony has to be the worst designed encounter I've ever seen. What the heck is the point of an encounter with 9 (nine!) outer gods? Not many investigator so much as glimpse that scene and not go insane? And that's not even getting into the Shantaks, sane loss from observing the rites themselves, etc. And assuming you could survive the sane drain, if ever an encounter called for the party to have a couple of Vickers machine guns as an appropriate response, that would be the one. I'm at a loss how to even make that little surprise cool if the investigation turns in that direction. Even if you limit the SAN drain by calling it all one encounter, it's a ridiculous and likely campaign ending scene that the PC's have no good way to interact with. Most the party will need a couple months in an asylum to halfway recover from that.)
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Welcome to Call of Cthulhu, man. Not everything is quite that dramatic, but the PCs have opportunities to not engage with the ritual if they wisely choose not to. Of course, if they do decide to fire away with Vickers machine guns, I'd feel confident hitting them up for full sanity risks since they're interacting with it so closely. I'd be much more likely to give them a break for retreating and using the ritual as a distraction to search the manor.


Anyway, back on topic, while facing off against an Elder God with an elephant gun doesn't seem very bright, one of the easiest approaches I can see to dealing with the posed threat is build a party of expert snipers and just assassinate all the necessary sorcerers - preferably when they don't have a half-dozen lesser deities around draining your sanity. Large stretches of the campaign seem better suited to a special forces team than to Lovecraftian antiquarians and scholars.

Again, not exactly genre and I'd expect them to have considerable difficulty navigating the issues in the New York, London, and, particularly, Cairo chapters. And while they might do fine in the bush outside Nairobi, those antiquarians and scholars would still be the ones driving best at finding the most effective solutions to the campaign.
 

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Welcome to Call of Cthulhu, man. Not everything is quite that dramatic...

No, sorry, but that is the opposite of dramatic. There are plenty of CoC scenarios that do dramatic just fine, including for example the example ones like 'The Haunting', 'Edge of Darkness', and 'A Cracked and Crooked Manse'. But that scenario is not dramatic - it's cheesy, lame, and poor design. Any freaking keeper could have a scenario with 'You open a door, and you see Yog-Sothoth. Roll an insanity check.' But such a scenario would not be dramatic.

but the PCs have opportunities to not engage with the ritual if they wisely choose not to. Of course, if they do decide to fire away with Vickers machine guns, I'd feel confident hitting them up for full sanity risks since they're interacting with it so closely. I'd be much more likely to give them a break for retreating and using the ritual as a distraction to search the manor.

Again, you seem overly comfortable with metagaming for my taste. By saying you'd not hit them up for full sanity risks for not 'interacting so closely' - this is a tacit admission that you can't use the scenario as written. There is no interacting with the scenario as written. It's just a movie that plays out that the PC's are supposed to do what with? Run away from in anticipation that there will be overwhelming sanity loss if they stick around to try to figure out what is happening? That's not dramatic.

Again, not exactly genre and I'd expect them to have considerable difficulty navigating the issues in the New York, London, and, particularly, Cairo chapters. And while they might do fine in the bush outside Nairobi, those antiquarians and scholars would still be the ones driving best at finding the most effective solutions to the campaign.

[SBLOCK]All of those can be resolved quite easily with sufficient firepower. In New York, a couple of grenades tossed into a room full of naked people with no weapons in close quarters and a few trench broom style shotguns and the whole crowd is dead. Poor some gasoline into the pit to kill whatever that thing is without looking at it (because almost no mythos monsters are immune to fire) and you're done. The only SAN loss you have to worry about is an angry keeper punishing you for ruining the scenario by being too ruthless when fighting... murderous cultists aiming to destroy the world. Cairo might offer the best scenario for having a couple of .404 Rigby's with a telescopic sight, as it's the nastiest sorcerer in the bunch and probably can destroy any party he sets his mind to destroying but he goes down like a chump to a head shot from a shooter he's not aware of. Only a Keeper deciding Nyarthaloptep personally intervenes stops that strategy, and if that is the case then why doesn't the Dark Pharoah just squash the PC's personally - ei, "You open the door, it's Nyarthalotep." London is fundamentally similar. You don't actually need to do anything here but you can keep a keeper from punishing you with easily justifiable replacement NPC's by killing off both sorcerers. The easiest way to do that is the same methodology used in Cairo. A bit of hide and sneak and a well prepared fighting position. If you stop the ceremony with some well placed rifle fire before it starts, you win and the rest is just some library research with no real pressure on you.[/SBLOCK]

Look at it this way, the whole campaign hinges on the PC's will be able to follow the trail of clues. To that end, the scenario GUMSHOE like leaves breadcrumbs everywhere than even minimally competent parties will be able to follow. So all the actual challenge is dealing with those sorcerers and their nigh endless stream of cultists and summoned minions. Not fighting the sorcerers in any sort of symmetrical warfare is the only viable strategy, which can mostly easily be accomplished by a team of commandos since the sorcerers have vastly more magical power than the PC's will ever have and their minions are immune to SAN loss while police officers and soldiers - even if you could recruit them - certainly are not. The biggest danger I can see in this approach is the aforementioned police officers and soldiers. Although, I suppose a truly ruthless party would set the police up and rely on all that SAN loss and resulting carnage to cover their own tracks and provide justification to the authorities.

This is the whole point. The 'genre' is what the game creates, and not what the game intends to create. The game might intend to create Lovecraftian horror and may even do so on the assumption the players 'behave', but what if the PC's don't behave? Just metagame?
 
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While I don't disagree with the OP regarding how underpowered guns seem, isn't the whole point of Call of Cthulhu to encourage the players to flee for their lives rather than to stand and fight?
 

While I don't disagree with the OP regarding how underpowered guns seem, isn't the whole point of Call of Cthulhu to encourage the players to flee for their lives rather than to stand and fight?

I doubt that it is the whole point. The whole point involves creating an experience of fear and horror, one result of which might be having the player characters flee for their lives rather than standing and fighting.

But what I'm noticing with 20 more years experience as a game master is that the assumption that characters will flee for their lives as a rational choice is based on several assumptions, one of which is that the players are playing along with the device and are woefully and perhaps deliberately underequipped with light firearms and some improvised melee weapons. Such equipment would leave them not just woefully underequipped to deal with the supernatural horrors of the mythos, but ordinary animals such as grizzly bears, moose, cape buffalo, rhino, elephants, lions, and tigers.

If on the other hand, the party is equipped with state of the art hunting weapons and the accoutrements of warfare in the 1920s, then not only are they much better equipped to deal with large game animals, they are equally equipped to deal with the majority of monsters in the mythos that characters are thrown against: byakhee, hunting horrors, shantaks, zombies, deep ones, and so forth all are no harder and often much easier to kill than published stats for cape buffalo, rhino, and elephants. If firearms have more realistic damage to large creatures, so that a guy with a large game rifle really can realistically hunt large game, that gap gets even smaller. Half-damage or moderate armor is really only a problem when the party is using small caliber personal defense weapons. Minimum damage from impaling attacks is really only a problem if the party doesn't have semi-automatic and automatic weapons.

This raises an issue for me that is not usually addressed. All that research ability is supposedly there so that the party won't get into combat. But the party needs to not get into combat primarily because it's assumed most of its points are in research skills rather than combat skills and that it's woefully underequipped. That's not going to be a reliable assumption in the long run.

Now all that being said, it would still be trivially easy to kill CoC PC's. Most CoC monsters have horrifying attack modes once they get into tentacle range, and CoC investigators never have a surplus of hit points. Plus, if investigators have a huge asymmetrical advantage against most monsters in terms of ranged firepower, then monsters generally have a huge asymmetrical advantage in terms of magic with numerous low cost attack spells that can really mess a party up. It's easy to design scenarios where monsters can launch attacks from concealed positions and at close range, or where monsters have actual immunity to firearms and not just resistance to them.

But, I'm still looking for keepers with experience with players gunning up with optimized weaponry and high weapon skills - bayonet tipped trench shotguns, Thompson submachine guns, African big game rifles, and so forth. My suspicion us you can just roll with it until overconfidence gets them in over their heads, and that for many high combat scenarios that upgunning is actually essential and desirable. So many keepers seem to take it for granted that you can't outgun mythos monsters. As far as I can tell, not only can you, but being able kill mythos monsters before they are able to act may be one of the most rational strategies players could pursue. There is no way for example to defeat a Dark Young in close combat as its attacks are just too powerful. But with enough firepower and a round or two to kite the thing before you get into tentacle range, it's just a sanity draining elephant and goes down against big guns the same way.
 
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FWIW, Yog-Sothtoh.com is basically the ENWorld for Call of Cthulhu

Guns are actually kind of weird in HPL's stuff. Like in the Dunwich Horror, they are deemed useless, but apparently somehow a pistol took out Rhan-Tegoth in The Horror in the Museum. And definitely useful in The Lurking Fear and From Beyond

But I think the underlying problem is just the BRP system not scaling well for things beyond humans and guns being hard to model in any RPG system.
 

This is a really interesting point that I hadn't considered before looking at RAW.

From a quick browse through CoC /5e, the bison/elephant question would be cured by significantly reducing the armour for these large animals. I'd guess that the original rules were written assuming that size effectively gave armour by making vital points harder to hit. Your knowledge invalidates this, so change that bit. Animal hide shouldn't be working as well as kevlar.

We use the "shock" rules for any human or animal foe - but not for mythos entities. {Damage in 1 wound > 1/2 HP then roll CONx5 to stay conscious} However, as written it does say when investigators take damage

I ran MoN and it ended up with some relatively well-equipped characters supported by colonial troopers with 0.303 rifles. Overall, my feeling about the investigators up-gunning is that if the PCs start an arms race then the cultists will respond. This includes cultists throwing sticks of dynamite, bombing hotel rooms and drive-by shootings with tommy guns.

It's worth remembering that if you end up with heavily armed investigators - possibly with armed NPC support - then as soon as the monsters are in sight for targeting then that's when I'd have them roll for san loss. That will take some out. Even though I can't see how to generate the result in RAW - we've always played (or assumed) that a temporarily insane PC/NPC might start blazing away at fellow investigators.

Overall recommendation - ask at YSDC?
 

From a quick browse through CoC /5e, the bison/elephant question would be cured by significantly reducing the armour for these large animals. I'd guess that the original rules were written assuming that size effectively gave armour by making vital points harder to hit. Your knowledge invalidates this, so change that bit. Animal hide shouldn't be working as well as kevlar.

Agreed. I know what they are trying to simulate, but they don't do it very well. Let's ignore the 'punch' problem in BRP for now, and focus on the firearms. The big three safari animals - rhino, elephant and cape buffalo - share in common that they butt their heads together and as such have massive bony brows to protect their brains from forward impact. While their hide is somewhat resistant to damage, it was easily penetrated by firearms. The real problem is if one of those animals lowered its head and charged, you needed a reasonably high powered weapon to penetrate the skull from the front and kill it quickly enough that it wouldn't trample you to death. The old low velocity black powder weapons frequently wouldn't be able to do it, resulting in a dead hunter. To ensure a kill from the front with one shot that didn't have to be absolutely perfectly placed, you needed either a very large or else very fast moving bullet (and preferably a little of both). That is what I think they are trying to simulate with the armor on some of these creatures (in large part, BRP has other scaling issues as well owing to the small range of hit points available). But, they do it badly, especially for a hit point based system.

So yes, if it comes up, I plan on tweaking the numbers on real animals a bit. A Rhino shouldn't be more resistant to bullets than most mythos monsters, and while it's head will literally bounce a .22 most of the time, an elephant gun should seriously wound or kill it. I also plan on having firearms work slightly better against large creatures, while keeping minimum damage the same so that mythos monsters don't suddenly get more vulnerable to bullets (in fact, many will be slightly less vulnerable since the average is going up but the minimum is often going down).

We use the "shock" rules for any human or animal foe - but not for mythos entities. {Damage in 1 wound > 1/2 HP then roll CONx5 to stay conscious} However, as written it does say when investigators take damage

Agreed.

I ran MoN and it ended up with some relatively well-equipped characters supported by colonial troopers with 0.303 rifles. Overall, my feeling about the investigators up-gunning is that if the PCs start an arms race then the cultists will respond. This includes cultists throwing sticks of dynamite, bombing hotel rooms and drive-by shootings with tommy guns.

Now that is interesting. How did they get the King's soldiery on their side? Is bringing a long a platoon of troops actually a practical methodology for dealing with SAN draining monsters?

While I agree with the idea of the PC's upgunning provoking a response by the cultists, I think I'd mostly rather have the cultists respond through magic. Having a hunting horror rip through the side of your hotel room seems more genera appropriate than a bundle of dynamite crashing through the window.

It's worth remembering that if you end up with heavily armed investigators - possibly with armed NPC support - then as soon as the monsters are in sight for targeting then that's when I'd have them roll for san loss.

Of course.

Even though I can't see how to generate the result in RAW - we've always played (or assumed) that a temporarily insane PC/NPC might start blazing away at fellow investigators.

I think that is a potentially reasonable result, but I generally would only adopt such a blood thirsty response to insanity in situations were that reaction - insane thought it might be in the circumstance - at least had some sort of twisted internal logic. For example, I probably wouldn't have that response occur the first time meeting deep ones or ghouls, but I might have that sort of response if a PC went indefinitely insane after watching someone transform into a deep one or when encountering Shaggai. What I wouldn't do is have that result just because the PC's had upguned.

Overall recommendation - ask at YSDC?

YSDC doesn't get very much traffic, and while I've found some really good nuggets browsing their forums, my overall impression is 'meh'.
 
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