Current print publishers

[JoeGKushner]

Which is the equivalent of saying "if (whatever company's) 1000 pages of product plus ancillary materials this year isn't your thing, they're not providing d20 support." If you'd written that for every company on your list, then it might be a fair complaint (if not a particular sensible one), but singling out Malhavoc looks kinda weird. How many companies are even doing 1000 pages of d20 product this year?

And you've note that I count it as d20 support but it's a single book shot. If it's not you're cup of tea, you're SOL no?

Ken Hite has a recent column that notes that the old model of every RPG publisher trying to churn out product every month just isn't working for anybody not named Wizards of the Coast and maybe White Wolf. If you don't like Ptolus, you'd better hope Mr. Hite's completely off-base, because it's almost the poster child for the sort of product he believes we're going to see from successful RPG companies in the future.

Uh... I never said "I" didn't like Ptlous. However in this thing called "REALITY" $119.99 is a little off the scope for some people so for them, Malhavoc, which used to provide some nice alternatives to WoTC products when the market could support them, is a non-entity.

 

[SWBaxter]

And you've note that I count it as d20 support but it's a single book shot. If it's not you're cup of tea, you're SOL no?

If adventures aren't my cup of tea, then I'm pretty much SOL with Goodman and Necromancer. So what? That doesn't exclude them from being d20 publishers, it just means I'm not going to buy from them. My personal preferences do not determine whether or not a given company is producing d20 stuff. I'd need an even larger ego than I already have and an absolutely monstrous sense of entitlement to believe otherwise.

Uh... I never said "I" didn't like Ptlous. However in this thing called "REALITY" $119.99 is a little off the scope for some people so for them, Malhavoc, which used to provide some nice alternatives to WoTC products when the market could support them, is a non-entity.

Again, so what? Nowhere in the d20 STL is there a mandatory price point threshold where you stop being a d20 publisher. As well, so long as we're visiting "REALITY", buying the equivalent pagecount in d20 products from just about any other company is generally going to put you at or above that price point, so the pricing argument only holds water for people who can't add (which hopefully is only a minority of gamers). If you disagree with Malhavoc's strategy of putting out one big product rather than a bunch of smaller ones, then bully for you, it still doesn't mean they're in some way not a d20 publisher. And it still means that declaring their 1000 pages of d20 stuff this year somehow doesn't count is almost completely off base.

 

[Piratecat]

Don't start bickering and taking stuff personally, folks. This isn't a yelling match.

Uh... I never said "I" didn't like Ptlous. However in this thing called "REALITY" $119.99 is a little off the scope for some people so for them, Malhavoc, which used to provide some nice alternatives to WoTC products when the market could support them, is a non-entity.

While I know you're trying to neutrally describe the current market, I'll respectfully disagree with the above description. Rather than being a non-entity, Malhavoc is one of the gorillas of the remaining d20 publishers: good reputation, solid product, high quality, reasonable sales.

Saying that they've needed to specialize into a product line isn't an insult, of course, and I understand that you lament the lack of a variety of Malhavoc product lines. Nevertheless, I suspect that the high ends books and fun ancillary materials (which will probably be useful even to people who don't have the main book) are going to be a lot more profitable and successful than more generic rules supplements.

The problem is, of course, that like everyone else I don't need many more rules supplements. If I'm going to spend my money on a D&D product, I want it to be something pretty special. That's surely the market that Ptolus is aimed at, and I hope it will stimulate a demand for other, similar products.

You know, it's interesting that this slump was predicted on these forums back in 2001. I suspect the moribund market will continue to get worse, then 4e will be announced, and everything will pick up nicely once again.

 

[JoeGKushner]

If adventures aren't my cup of tea, then I'm pretty much SOL with Goodman and Necromancer.

Man, I better return the Tome of Horrors III then. And Eldritch Sorcery. And Bard's Gate. SO many 'adventurers', not generic d20 sourcebooks.

What's that you say? I'd better return the Deluxe Book of Templates too? And the Power Gamer's Wizard's Guide? And the intial Blackmoor material Goodman Games did? And... yeah... more generic d20 material.

Again, so what? Nowhere in the d20 STL is there a mandatory price point threshold where you stop being a d20 publisher. As well, so long as we're visiting "REALITY", buying the equivalent pagecount in d20 products from just about any other company is generally going to put you at or above that price point, so the pricing argument only holds water for people who can't add (which hopefully is only a minority of gamers). If you disagree with Malhavoc's strategy of putting out one big product rather than a bunch of smaller ones, then bully for you, it still doesn't mean they're in some way not a d20 publisher. And it still means that declaring their 1000 pages of d20 stuff this year somehow doesn't count is almost completely off base.

Never said that they're weren't a d20 publisher. I said if you're not into Pltous, then they've got nothing for you. Can you show me where I said Malhavoc does not support d20? Or can you point out where I've said that if Ptlous isn't your thing, Malhavoc doesn't offer you a lot of options this year? Maybe somehow I typed, "Malhavoc has abandonded d20!" and forgot about it?

 

[JoeGKushner]

Don't start bickering and taking stuff personally, folks. This isn't a yelling match.

While I know you're trying to neutrally describe the current market, I'll respectfully disagree with the above description. Rather than being a non-entity, Malhavoc is one of the gorillas of the remaining d20 publishers: good reputation, solid product, high quality, reasonable sales.

I agree. Heck, I've got a preorder for Ptlous in. I love city based campaigns. I even have all of the old City Books long before Green Ronin 'discovered' that systemless books may be an option.

Saying that they've needed to specialize into a product line isn't an insult, of course, and I understand that you lament the lack of a variety of Malhavoc product lines. Nevertheless, I suspect that the high ends books and fun ancillary materials (which will probably be useful even to people who don't have the main book) are going to be a lot more profitable and successful than more generic rules supplements.

I hope so. I'd like to see more books that perhaps aren't quite so high end mind you and I'm going to really be bummed if this is on Amazon for 60% off like Wolrd's Largest Dungeon was, but hey, you take your chances and roll your dice.

The problem is, of course, that like everyone else I don't need many more rules supplements. If I'm going to spend my money on a D&D product, I want it to be something pretty special. That's surely the market that Ptolus is aimed at, and I hope it will stimulate a demand for other, similar products.

I'm on the opposite side of things. I hope that it does really well for them but I'd like to see Monte do a similiar style book, perhaps not so high priced and smaller, and see how it sells. I'm very curious for example, to see what he's got planned for 2007 or heck, the rest of this year.

You know, it's interesting that this slump was predicted on these forums back in 2001. I suspect the moribund market will continue to get worse, then 4e will be announced, and everything will pick up nicely once again.

Well, that will be interesting. Especially if 4e is a 'closed' system. Prove Green Ronin right for developing their True20 and Malhavoc for their AE and IH along with Troll Lord's C&C.

 

[Piratecat]

Never said that they're weren't a d20 publisher. I said if you're not into Pltous, then they've got nothing for you. Can you show me where I said Malhavoc does not support d20? Or can you point out where I've said that if Ptlous isn't your thing, Malhavoc doesn't offer you a lot of options this year? Maybe somehow I typed, "Malhavoc has abandonded d20!" and forgot about it?

Err, Joe? when I asked folks to quit bickering, you were included in that request.

It's a fascinating subject, but picking a fight about it is not an option here. Especially when you guys are actually, fundamentally agreeing about part of this. Email me if you'd like to discuss this further.

I'll be utterly shocked if 4e is a closed system. In my opinion, WotC would be very foolish to do so.

 

[JoeGKushner]

Err, Joe? when I asked folks to quit bickering, you were included in that request.

It's a fascinating subject, but picking a fight about it is not an option here. Email me if you'd like to discuss this further.

My bad.

Just don't want to be... falsely quoted.

 

[Nellisir]

The problem is, of course, that like everyone else I don't need many more rules supplements.

Maybe not, but if the ongoing lists over on the "What would you produce if you ran WotC for the next two years" thread are any indication, you do want the material you have integrated, organized, and made easier to access. I think there's a unprecedented opportunity here to really utilize the OGL, but...I'll have to bite my tongue now.

 

[Piratecat]

I think there's a unprecedented opportunity here to really utilize the OGL, but...I'll have to bite my tongue now.

That hasn't been done very well, has it? Monte has published the "Best of the Year" book, and Mongoose has made a lot of compendiums, but very little integrates or (more importantly) builds on what has gone before. I think this is an area with a lot of potential that has been completely missed.

 

[Mark]

Ken Hite has a recent column that notes that the old model of every RPG publisher trying to churn out product every month just isn't working for anybody not named Wizards of the Coast and maybe White Wolf.

Peeled this off for a separate thread -

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=163927