Custom subrace

[CRGreathouse]

I'd like to design an elven subrace for my homebrew campaign, and decided that feedback would be useful.

Are these too powerful? Too weak?

Grey Elves
· -2 Strength, -2 Constitution, +4 Intelligence, +2 Charisma.
· Medium-size.
· Elven base speed is 30 feet.
· Immunity to magic sleep spells and effects.
· +2 racial saving throw bonus against Enchantment spells or effects.
· Low-light Vision: Elves can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. They retain the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions.
· +2 racial bonus on Concentration checks. Grey elves have naturally focused minds.
· +4 racial bonus on Spot checks. Grey elves have keen sight.
· Automatic Languages: Common and Elven.
· Bonus Languages: Any.
· Favored Class: Wizard.
· Level Adjustment: +1.

 

[CRGreathouse]

A first level wizard with this race would almost surely get two bonus spells at first level, but a second level human wizard would have just as many spells total. This elf would be slightly behind until mid-levels, but would have significant advantages at higher levels.

Would the higher-level advantage be too much for being behind half a feat, a few hp, and half a spell level?

 

[Technik4]

First glance seems overpowered. I always think races that give +4s are overpowered, but thats just me. This seems like a race that could easily be an ECL +0.

Grey Elves
· -2 Strength, -2 Constitution, +2 Intelligence, +2 Wisdom, +2 Charisma.
· +2 racial bonus on Spot and Search checks. Grey elves have keen sight.
· Level Adjustment: +0.

Funny I would price that version at 0, yours at more than 0 but not quite 1. For ECL +1...

Grey Elves
· -2 Constitution, +4 Intelligence, +2 Charisma.
· +2 racial bonus on Spot and Search checks. Grey elves have keen sight.
· Level Adjustment: +1.

Just my .02

Technik

PS- In the above examples anything not highlighted is as your first post.

 

[CRGreathouse]

How about this?

Grey Elves
· -2 Strength, -2 Constitution, +4 Intelligence, +2 Charisma.
· Medium-size.
· Elven base speed is 30 feet.
· Immunity to magic sleep spells and effects.
· +2 racial saving throw bonus against Enchantment spells or effects.
· Sharp Sight: Grey elves can see twice as far as humans.
· +2 racial bonus on Concentration checks. Grey elves have naturally focused minds.
· +4 racial bonus on Spot checks. Grey elves have keen sight.
· Bonus Feat: Grey elves recieve Spell Penetration as a bonus feat.
· Automatic Languages: Common and Elven.
· Bonus Languages: Any.
· Favored Class: Wizard.
· Level Adjustment: +1.

 

[Technik4]

My Thoughts

Just some pointers for creating races:

1) Make sure the race is being designed to provide interesting roleplaying experiences and adventures for players. Don't tailor game mechanics around to create a new "race".

2) Ask yourself "Would anyone of this race be a cleric? fighter? rogue? wizard?". If you can't honestly say that you would like to roleplay any of those, then your race may not be sound enough from a setting perspective.

3) If you are creating a race with an ECL modifier, take a glance at other races with the same modifier. Make sure that neither has a huge advantage over the other, and note "why" most races have an ECL modifier to begin with. For instance, Tieflings and Asimaars are outsiders, while the drow have excellent stats and spell resistance.

Technik

 

[CRGreathouse]

Re: My Thoughts

1) Make sure the race is being designed to provide interesting roleplaying experiences and adventures for players. Don't tailor game mechanics around to create a new "race".

2) Ask yourself "Would anyone of this race be a cleric? fighter? rogue? wizard?". If you can't honestly say that you would like to roleplay any of those, then your race may not be sound enough from a setting perspective.

3) If you are creating a race with an ECL modifier, take a glance at other races with the same modifier. Make sure that neither has a huge advantage over the other, and note "why" most races have an ECL modifier to begin with. For instance, Tieflings and Asimaars are outsiders, while the drow have excellent stats and spell resistance.

The race is designed for NPCs, but I wanted it to be playable for PCs in case someone really wanted to use them. They're usually too aloof to join a group.

Because the race is designed primarily for NPCs, I'm not too worried about anyone choosing it -- but I know that I'd like to play a grey elf cleric, and a player has already asked if he could be a grey elf wizard.

I'm not sure how well this race stacks up with other ECL races. Drow, as I recall, are ECL +2, so they're not that great of a comparison. Aasimar and tieflings don't have stats that good, but are native outsiders (the best of the two worlds). Do you think my race is too weak?

 

[Bean 2.0]

cool i'd plkace it at about +1 ecl
awsome courtiers , bards , some rouges, lousy fighters, incredible wizards, ok clarics, pathetic barbarians,monks,paladins,druids, and rangers though

 

[Technik4]

The thing I see is mostly they are pigeonholed into spell-casters (esp wizard). Things like drow and tieflings have a reason to be ECL +0, imo, your race doesnt. There is currently no race that has an int bonus at ECL +0 (in the PHB anyway). I feel that your race of intelligent elves could have a +2 int bonus and be very playable at ECL +0. For instance:

Grey Elves
· -2 Strength, +2 Intelligence, +2 Charisma
· Medium-size.
· Elven base speed is 30 feet.
· Immunity to magic sleep spells and effects.
· Lowlight Vision 60ft.
· +2 racial saving throw bonus against Enchantment spells or effects.
· +2 racial bonus on Concentration checks. Grey elves have naturally focused minds.
· +2 racial bonus on Spellcraft checks. Spellcraft is always a class skill for a Grey Elf. Grey elves are more in touch with magic and feel it like humans feel a breeze.
· +2 racial bonus to Spot and Search checks. Grey elves have very keen sight and rarely miss things.
· Automatic Languages: Common and Elven.
· Bonus Languages: Any (except Special).
· Favored Class: Wizard.
· ECL +0

To me this is a balanced race. Every class can benefit from its bonuses. For your ECL +1 version I could never ever perceive a grey elf fighter. For this race I see a dex based fighter possible, or a multi-classed fighter/wizard or fighter/sorceror. Or a ranger. The stat bonuses are based off of the Half-Orc (oddly enough, they are opposite), and because the Half-Orc gets those bonuses (opposite) and little else, I figured you could give an elf quite a few other bonuses.

Perhaps I could help more easily if I knew why this race had to be ECL +1....

Technik

 

[CRGreathouse]

To me this is a balanced race. Every class can benefit from its bonuses.

Well, yours is quite powerful. Without the Con penalty, it's better than existing races. If you put it back in, it would be balanced, methinks.

Perhaps I could help more easily if I knew why this race had to be ECL +1....

Now we're getting somewhere. I want the race to have +4 Int because that models what exists in my world.

What's more, I don't want any races with mental bonuses at less than ECL +1 as a design choice -- I'd prefer to give more benefts and put them at a higher ECL.

I agree that this race, as written, is fairly pigeonholed. I'd like to find a way to make this less of an issue while keeping the +4 Int and -2 Str if at all possible. (Note that I gave them Spell Penetration on the second revision. This is designed to make up for a lack of caster level from ECL adjustment, but only furthers the idea that they're spellcasters only. Ideas?)

 

[Technik4]

I understand your design decision about mental attributes. I agree the race is rather powerful without the con negative, but it seemed balanced to me.

Ok, heres my try at a not-so-pigeonholed elf race, with +4 int.

Grey Elves
· -2 Constitution, +4 Intelligence
· Medium-size.
· Elven base speed is 30 feet.
· Immunity to magic sleep spells and effects.
· +2 racial bonus on Will saves against spells and spell-like effects.
· Lowlight Vision 60ft.
· +2 racial bonus on Spellcraft checks. Spellcraft is always a class skill for a Grey Elf. Grey elves are more in touch with magic and feel it like humans feel a breeze.
· +2 racial bonus to Spot and Search checks. Grey elves have very keen sight and rarely miss things.
· Spell-like Abilites: 1/day - *
· Automatic Languages: Common and Elven.
· Bonus Languages: Any (except Special).
· Favored Class: Wizard.
· ECL +1

Ok, so we have good stat bonuses, a more powerful saving throw bonus, a free class skill, good skill bonuses, and a spell-like ability. Is there anything that every single grey elf would be able to do? Perhaps something they are known for, something not exclusively useful to spell-casters, but not overpowered either.

My Suggestions: Obscuring Mist (lvl 1), Fog Cloud, (lvl 2), Change Self (lvl 1), Alter Self (lvl 2), Comprehend Languages (lvl 1), Detect Thoughts (lvl 2),

For a frame of reference, most ECL +1 I saw (Genasi and Tiefling + Asimaar) get 1 spell-like ability/ day. This could add a lot of flavor, and open the class up more to rogues and fighters (depending on the spell).

Also, I don't think they need a bonus spell penetration, as you said, it just makes it more appealing towards spellcasters.

Technik