D&D 5E (2024) D&D 2024, Phantasmal Force and Metamagic Interactions

[Lord Ustur]

Really guys, the new Phantasmal Force got really insane and besides that it can simply end the enemy without even having a chance of reaction.

Combos like Subtle Phantasmal Force can end an enemy without any chance of reaction. "A giant snake made of shadows and pursues tirelessly."

It also has excellent interactions with metamagic... Subtle, Heightein and Extended for Insane 180 damage.
What do you think about that?







New Phantasmal Force
You attempt to craft an illusion in the mind of a creature you can see within range. The target makes an Intelligence saving throw. On a failed save, you create a phantasmal object, creature, or other phenomenon that is no larger than a 10-foot Cube and that is perceivable only to the target for the duration. The phantasm includes sound, temperature, and other stimuli.
The target can take a Study action to examine the phantasm with an Intelligence (Investigation) check against your spell save DC. If the check succeeds, the target realizes that the phantasm is an illusion, and the spell ends.
While affected by the spell, the target treats the phantasm as if it were real and rationalizes any illogical outcomes from interacting with it. For example, if the target steps through a phantasmal bridge and survives the fall, it believes the bridge exists and something else caused it to fall.
An affected target can even take damage from the illusion if the phantasm represents a dangerous creature or hazard. On each of your turns, such a phantasm can deal 2d8 Psychic damage to the target if it is in the phantasm's area or within 5 feet of the phantasm. The target perceives the damage as a type appropriate to the illusion.

 

[Pauln6]

They finally found a use for intelligence saves? Yay!

 

[Lord Ustur]

They finally found a use for intelligence saves? Yay!

strong buffs, really.

 

[BookTenTiger]

Is this any different than the 2014 spell? I remember using it pretty effectively and this one doesn't look much different.

 

[TerraDave]

This has come up in play. First question, can it be moved?

 

[Yaarel]

New Phantasmal Force
... The target can take a Study action to examine the phantasm with an Intelligence (Investigation) check against your spell save DC.

As a DM, this is the part of the Fantasmal Force spell that I find tricky. It feels more like DM fiat, rather than a spell description.

Exactly when should a monster decide to "examine" the phenomenon, or not?

A flat Intelligence save might be better for routine usage, with the assumption that the phantasm might "feel" slightly off. But this too affects flavor.

So far, I have been using a two-step process. An automatic Wisdom save to feel something off, then an Intelligence save to figure out what exactly that is.

 

[SkidAce]

As a DM, this is the part of the Fantasmal Force spell that I find tricky. It feels more like DM fiat, rather than a spell description.

Exactly when should a monster decide to "examine" the phenomenon, or not?

A flat Intelligence save might be better for routine usage, with the assumption that the phantasm might "feel" slightly off. But this too affects flavor.

So far, I have been using a two-step process. An automatic Wisdom save to feel something off, then an Intelligence save to figure out what exactly that is.

When they see their friend fighting nothing (if theres more than one monster)

I also compare passive investigation to the spell dc.

 

[John R Davis]

So a player has started using this. If the monster fails I think after a few rounds of being hurt by it, the target would run away, out of the ten foot area and the spell would end?

Does this seem fair?

 

[Stormonu]

So a player has started using this. If the monster fails I think after a few rounds of being hurt by it, the target would run away, out of the ten foot area and the spell would end?

Does this seem fair?

Spell wouldn't end - whatever was conjured in that 10 ft. area would remain (so, for example if the player created a blazing bonfire the victim would still perceive the bonfire being in place, or in another example a massive dragon blocking their path). The illusion couldn't leave the area it was created in or affect the area beyond the AoE. If the illusion doesn't pursue, the monster >might< get suspicious, though normally it would just rationalize why they aren't being affected any more.

As for the creature moving to escape - that's totally fair if it feels its can't harm/destroy the effect that is killing it. That's a DMs call, but if a monster is at half hp or less, it would be logical it'd start looking for a way out of its predicament against a foe too tough to beat.

Here's a follow on question - if a creature had a Resistance to the conjured effect (example, a black dragon dragonborn wading through a phantasmal pool of acid), would the fact it's taking full damage alert it that this may be an illusion? Would you have it affect the damage the target takes (even though it's psychic damage)? Would creatures immune to psychic damage be immune to the whole spell or just the damage portion (i.e., could you conjure up a flaming wall via the spell and it would still keep the target from passing through, even though it won't take any damage)?

 

[BlackSeed_Vash]

From the spell description:

While affected by the spell, the target treats the phantasm as if it were real and rationalizes any illogical outcomes from interacting with it. For example, if the target steps through a phantasmal bridge and survives the fall, it believes the bridge exists and something else caused it to fall.

Here's a follow on question - if a creature had a Resistance to the conjured effect (example, a black dragon dragonborn wading through a phantasmal pool of acid), would the fact it's taking full damage alert it that this may be an illusion?

Since the dragonborn failed their save, they would assume its extremely potent acid to be doing as much damage as it is.

Would creatures immune to psychic damage be immune to the whole spell or just the damage portion (i.e., could you conjure up a flaming wall via the spell and it would still keep the target from passing through, even though it won't take any damage)?

They're immune to the damage, they need to be immune to Illusion spells to not be affected by the spell completely. Using your example, unless they're also immune/resistant to fire damage, are they willing to get burned to pass through.