[D&D 3.5e] That New Pit Fiend

[jgbrowning]

Well, I dont have the books with the iconics in them (although it appears that book will be somewhat out of date as well) but could you post the 15th level version of the iconic wizard?

And were you kidding with GSP not being obvious for a cleric? What feats do clerics take? They get ~2 feats at first level from domains, and a feat at first level. Once again, if you have access to the iconics, please post the 15th level iconic cleric (or at least his feats and stats).Technik

15th cleric:
hp: 101
Ac: 24 (+1full plate)
init: 0
spd:20 ft
Morningstar (+1 magic) +13/+8/+3 (+2 dam)
L-crossbow +12 (+1 dam)
f:+13/ R+7/ W+17
spellcraft +18/ concentration +20
spells perday:
6/8/8/7/6/6/5/3/2

feats: Scribe scroll, brew potion, combat casting, forge wand, heighten spell, maximize spell

s:13 d:8 (10) with item c:14 i:10 w:18 (22 with items) chr:12

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15th wizard:
hp 59
ac 20
init +7
spd 30ft
1/4 staff +8/+3 (+1dam)
f: +8/ r+11/w+13
any 2 skills +23/ concentration +19/ alchemy +21
4/6/5/5/5/5/3/2/1

feats: scribe scroll, toughness, combat casting, brew potion, imp init, lightning reflex, quicken spell, heigten spell, craft wonderous item, heighten spell (odd heighten twice/ next in line is ) spell penetration.

s:10 d:14 (16 item) c:13 i:18 (22 item) w:12 ch:8

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I guess these guys are sub-par. Btw Greater Spell Penetration isn't in the PHB.

joe b.

 

[Intrope]

It's worth noting that Polymorphing the Pit Fiend is actually a great tactic; polymorphed creatures lose Su abilities, which includes Damage Reduction. Also, if polmorphed into a human it would have an AC of 10.

If we assume the twinked out transmuter is accompanied by a simlarly twinked out Great Sword Fighter (30 STR, +5 Keen Great Sword, Hastened, Weapon Focus & Specialization, Improved Critical, Power Attack) he can very nearly drop it in one attack sequence (average of 251.55 points, counting criticals) on average, if he does and all-out power attack. (note that if you can think of a monster to poly Mr. Fiend into with a worse AC than 10, he might be able to take him all the way down in one round--I thought of a Gelatinous Cube--275 damage!--but you can't Coup de Grace it then).

However, Mr. Fiend isn't dead though--his regeneration still applies. Once he is down, a weapon that negates his Regen can be used to Coup de grace him, though.

Note that it still has all of it's other defenses (in particular, SR is Ex).

Of course, disentagrating it would be even better--but you can't quicken a disentagrating while you can Quicken Poly Other.

Aslo note that even if it survives the Polymorph, it has to dispel it to regain it's DR--if it Polymorph's back into Pit Fiend form, it won't regain it!

Edit: If he's a Barbarian, he can actually pump out 275 damage against the Pit Fiend in Human form. Huzzah!

 

[jgbrowning]

he can very nearly drop it in one attack sequence (average of 251.55 points, counting criticals) on average, if he does and all-out power attack.

mr. fiend won't move to prevent full attacks?

edit: luckily i am not mr. fiend. i forgot about haste.

joe b.

 

[jgbrowning]

I BLAME THE ELVES!

joe b.

 

[reiella]

Banishment

For Cleric, minimum Will Save of 19 (10+3+6), not too difficult for the Pit Fiend to break (in fact impossible)

For Wiz/Sorc, min Will Save of 20 (10+3+7), again not too difficult for the pit fiend to break.

Not too far fetched to assume that the spellcaster by 16 level has somewhere around 18 in their prime spellcasting ability, no? That just bumps each of them up by one however, not much. But again, it's just assuming an 18 in their stat.

Also, with banishment, you actually have an interesting Focus component, one that also results in the DC being 2 higher (and provides a +1 to breaking SR). So we have a 22 Will DC (and 17+d20 to break SR) for the cleric, and a 23 Will DC (and 17+d20 to break SR).

Still pretty much impossible.

Now might possibly be easier for me to make the example with the wizard (Because they are more likly to be stat focused on simply int). Wouldn't be too unreasonable to assume a +4 Headband of Intellect (shuffles the DC up to 25). Typically maybe a +1 inherent bonus to a stat, which is ineffectual mostly.

Feat wise, it's silly to assume a spellcaster would take Spell Focus : Abjuration (a cleric/exorcist might), and Spell Pentration in general isn't seen as being as useful. A heighten feat might be had, but it isn't too likly to be prepared with Banishment.

Now taking into account the Dismissal adjustments (which I'm not sure actually apply but it's fairly minor), -MonsterHD + CasterLevel... result -1 to the save, so save DC of 24.

Mediocre spellcaster has a 30% of breaking SR, and a 10% chance of getting the Pit Fiend to fail their save. About a 3% chance for putzy wizard to 'defeat' the Pit Fiend in first round, with no special prep (beyond preparing Banishment and having something Pit Fiend fears). Not much of anything, eh? .

Assume Putzoman is slightly prepared and has 2 or 3 items that said Pit Fiend doesn't like (like oh say, the fighter's holysilver sword, the cleric's holy symbol, and let's say a some holy water. -sidenote, I'm intentionally being putz about the items, although they are valid choices given the current Banishment description). SR check changes to 19+d20 (+2), the save dc jumps up by 4 (to 28).

Now MPutzoman has a 40% chance of breaking SR, and a 30% chance to get past the save. So about a 12% chance of defeat. Not too bad for one spell . Of course, this assumes a wizard who had an 12 (4 =13, 8=14,12=15, 16=16). int. Using standard matrix, shuffle the starting int up to 15 (pretty much just a +1 to save DC, maybe a +2 given the assumed inherent bonus above-saveDC 30).

Putzo has the same 40% chance of beating SR and 40% chance to get past save, a simply 16% chance.

Not a real 'excess' of preparedness, and a 'reasonable' chance to deal with the Pit Fiend in one shot. The added benefit is Banishment would work doubleduty to clear out the summoned fodder mister Pit Fiend leads with.

Sidenote, unless Summon Baatezu gets majorly changed, if said Pit Fiend uses a non-targeted Dispel, some chance of him sending his buddy back to the Nine Hells.

Only real level of 'preparedness'/specialization is from the Focus components of the spell, and actual continued preparedness in that respect continues to raise the chances of poofing (5% on SR, 10% on Save DC, possibly double if your DM lets ya find a rare focus). Although, one thing I see happening, is that the monsters SR is slightly more significant than the normal, and may make the Penetration feats more desirable.

 

[Intrope]

Go Here to see an updated Pit Fiend Stats by WotC!

Alright, now we can see:
it's Large, not Larger
It has 225 hp (not 255), which is average on each die.
Grapple is still +36, and damage +14/+7 which doesn't match STR 37.
It's Ref(lex), not Fef(lex) (pure typo)
Skill points were all correct (meaning that we're still one point of, by Zappo's count)
Tactics are all the same.

Not much new here, of course. Still, the Grapple and Damage thing is odd. Again, maybe you get to add you size mod to your damage?

 

[Knight Otu]

Not much new here, of course. Still, the Grapple and Damage thing is odd. Again, maybe you get to add you size mod to your damage?

That's an interesting thought... But that doesn't really explain the grapple discrepancy. Maybe the progression now is +-5/+-10... for the grapple bonus?

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

I suppose it may be a little insulting. However, the point is that there is usually a chance for PCs to take down even significantly more powerful foes in round 1 with a save or die spell. That's what save or die spells are good for.

Consequently to speculate that it would be possible for a nearly perfectly optimized 16th level wizard to take down Mr. Pit fiend in one round with a pair of 8th level save or dies does not constitute evidence that CR 16 is an appropriate rating for the Baatezu.

In fact, the evidence is exactly the opposite. The 2HD monster (my reductio ad absurdium example) example is obviously not CR 1 just because an optimized wizard can (35% chance) take him down in round 1 with a save or die. Similarly, a 6th level fiendish cleric is not CR 3 because a 3rd level cleric stands a 25% chance or so of taking him down with a hold person spell. Nor is a 20th level rogue CR 11 because an optimized wizard stands a good chance of taking him down in round 1 with a Finger of Death.

Consequently, it doesn't tell us much of anything about the Pit Fiend's CR that a nearly perfectly optimized 16th level wizard stands a 25% chance of taking him down with a heightened disintegrate and also has a chance of weakening him with a quickened polymorph.

The point isn't that a 16th level party couldn't defeat this pit fiend but rather that defeating the pit fiend is likely to take up more than 20% of their resources.

Well, that and also that the rules shouldn't assume a perfectly optimized party when figuring CRs. (Just assuming a balanced party makes them unrealistic for many games).

I dont understand youre comparison to this 2HD monster...it doesnt make sense. Youre assuming an entirely linear system, and any system with spells that arent all balanced at the same level somewhat assumes that things wont be linear. Or at least not entirely linear to the extent its a little insulting to see that at the end of your post.

Technik

 

[Melriken]

Um, people that is not a high end wizard...

6 transmuter 10 red wizard to start with (red will be in the new DMG) gives you +5 to your rolls...

 

[Simulacrum]

Um, people that is not a high end wizard...

6 transmuter 10 red wizard to start with (red will be in the new DMG) gives you +5 to your rolls...

2 problems here.

1. Red Wizards are a very unlikely to be truly played by a PC,
in a realistic campaign youre goiing to be a disposible puppet for your entire life (and after that too), you will be followed by every single step you make and overshadowed and blackmailed and threatened your whole career.
Red Wizards normaly dont overspecialize too much, because they usualy take skills and feats to enhance their political and sozial powers.

2. Most Red Wizards have to trade in 2 even more likely 3 Schools of Magic, believe me that makes you very very vurnable and predictable. Thats why Red Wizards tend to stick around only on very very save terrain. Everything else is just too risky.
PC Red Wizards wouldn't go through all these risks and extra penaltys and have virtually no freedom on top of that too!
Thus a Red Wizard can hardly be seen as a good example for a high end wiz, he is at best a curiosity and exeption.

and even more:

3. every creature capable to cast Greater Dispelling and with hit die at least equal to the Red Wiz, can make VERY short work of him, against Dispelling creatures all their super powerful DC is worh NOTHING. (Dispels dont care for high DC)
(Pit fiend can quicken GDM and after that shred the Red Wizard to tiny pieces, or ready an counter spell and after that giving him something quickened in return that hurts very very bad.)

Everyone is fooling himself in thinking that everything you need to be a uebercaster is a maximum pumped DC is fataly wrong.
In truth such a character is even less likely to make it to high levels than a Wiz who takes care to boost his weaknesses instead of his strengths. Caster who only care for boosting DC's are doomed to lose. (Spellturning...ouch!)