[D&D 3.5e] That New Pit Fiend

[Quasqueton]

My guess is because the older version wasn't powerful enough.

So what was it?

Its abilities were not worthy of the CR16 rating? Then the CR should have been adjusted, not the stats.

It was not powerful enough for the title "pit fiend"? In that case, make a "greater pit fiend" or something.

I was looking forward to 3.5 before seeing this. But now I'm worried. If this is a sample of adjustments their making, they are going to far, unnecessarily.

People say dragon CRs are too low. Does this mean the new designers should weaken dragons to match their CR, or increase the single number of the CR to match the current dragon?

I am far from a naysayer. I looked forward to D&D3 when hints were coming out. I have been looking forward to 3.5. But now I'm shocked. This new pit fiend is a different beast than the standard pit fiend. And I can't see why.

Quasqueton

 

[Crothian]

What's wrong with a more powerful Pit Fiend?

 

[Deadguy]

I think it's still a little too soon to get so worried Quasqueton!

I suspect that the reason for the changes are the far higher levels of playtesting that all the monsters have now received. It's thus been possible to see what abilities are really effective against typical PCs, and what are just window-dressing.

Further I suspect that the Pit Fiend will prove to amongst those that are most changed: it's an archetypal beastie that players like to test their characters against.

So, let's stay cool and wait and see.

 

[MerricB]

Because they thought it would be a good idea for some reason.

Hmm... just thought of the one thing that is not 100% backwards compatable here: all those people who wrote as the stats for their Pit Fiend: "Hp 802, see MM". The hit point totals may be off.

Minor point, though.

There has been additional design since the original Pit Fiend; it may well be they thought some of the additional feats and abilities should be added to what should be a powerful creature (see Quicken Spell Ability, which isn't in MM1 as I recall), and had to change a few other things to make the additions fit properly.

Cheers!

 

[Technik4]

I can see why....

The whole game is getting a facelift, not just a few aspects. People who have done extensive research into CRs and that sort of thing generally agree that SOMETHING is wrong. Well, when you start fixing things it starts as a ripple and extends and extends. I dont think the former entry fit the former MM entry "Pit Fiends are the undisputed leaders of the baatezu."

But they will now.

I never understood why monsters didnt have more dex (they arent ALL lumbering).

A very old white dragon had 330 hp and was CR 16. A pit fiend had 123 hp and was CR 16. Sounds like one of em doesnt suck anymore.

The most powerful thing a pit fiend could do (formerly) was cast a meteor storm, after that they became a fighter with too few hp, too few feats, and regeneration.

Now, they will be at very least more feared. The natural armor was probably just to round out its AC to 40. The SR was probably redone (for most monsters with SR) with products that had "greater spell penetration" in them. Funny thing, Greater Spell Penetration may appear in the phb...

Technik

 

[Quasqueton]

What's wrong with a more powerful Pit Fiend?

Nothing. But that is what the advancement rules are for (add hit dice or classes accordingly). This is a substantial change in the creature's stats.

This is not a tweak to make sure the creature's stats match up with and follow the rules. (Which is what I was expecting.) This is a rewrite. With this, every instance of pit fiends in previously published D&D3 materials is very wrong. For instance, hit points have more than DOUBLED.

If you were to take away the name of this stat listing, I don't think you'd recognize this creature as a pit fiend. Try it with someone who is familiar with D&D devils but hasn't seen this new version yet.

Quasqueton

 

[beta-ray]

I guess part of the "worry" is the future lineup and those who have signed on early will be left behind.

How much backwards compatibility should it have? Not sure, but the people saying "now I will be forced to buy it" are usually greeted with "no one is forcing you to". The more things that are changed, the less that argument works. Yeah no one is holding a +2 arrow to your head, but still thinking about how things might change and no longer apply to the now OLD 3e... ugh.

Yeah it might be an overreaction at this point, but there is a tiny bit more cause to "worry" now.

 

[Crothian]

I think the wide increase in power is a good thing, it means they are not doing a little tweek here and there but a full revision. Monte said that what he expected in another thread and I'm happy to see it's right.

 

[darkbard]

with regards to the whole backward compatability issue...

i think the point about backward compatability is that previous products will not be completely unusable. sure, they're going to require tinkering to conform to the new rules set. if you don't want to use the new rules, you can just use older products as is and with the old rules books. you can keep your game exactly as it is and make full use of products published prior to the rules revision. however, any new products [post rules-revision] will not be compatable with your old rules books. the issue isn't so much "you don't have to use the new rules" but "if you want to make use of new products, you will need the new rules".

 

[jgbrowning]

Re: with regards to the whole backward compatability issue...

i think the point about backward compatability is that previous products will not be completely unusable. sure, they're going to require tinkering to conform to the new rules set. if you don't want to use the new rules, you can just use older products as is and with the old rules books. you can keep your game exactly as it is and make full use of products published prior to the rules revision. however, any new products [post rules-revision] will not be compatable with your old rules books. the issue isn't so much "you don't have to use the new rules" but "if you want to make use of new products, you will need the new rules".

Actually if they continue to re-write like this 3E will be pretty much as compatable as [hyperbole]3E is to 1E[/hyperbole]. (running Against the giants right now.. remember when giants had 60 hp?) There will be so much you have to modify to blance the old written material with the new material(EL's, stats blah blah) that they should just come out and say, "these rules will pretty much invalidate much of whats gone before. you can modify them to suit your need but its not really compatable." instead of saying you won't have to do such.

joe b.