D&D 3E/3.5 D&D 3e to be changed to new d20 rules? 4e coming!

[Kaptain_Kantrip]

Jeez. I never realized I was opening up such a can of worms with this topic. Let me just say that I would like to at least TRY a low HP, gritty, realistic LOW FANTASY game (that is still d20 so there aren't too many new rules to learn). I was hoping for some feedback on how to do this in my own game moreso than debating the merits of adding such rules to 4e. However, I do think D&D will end up incorporating many of the other d20 system game rules when WoTC get around to producing 4e. This will make the game more compatible with the other d20 games, just as Palladium or GURPS settings/games are all compatible with the core rules... Weren't we all panicked waiting for 3e to arrive? And 3e turned out to be a big improvement over prior editions (though I miss the complex character creation rules of Skills & Powers). I'm not worried about 4e. I'm sure it will be a big improvement over 3e, regardless of the changes (whatever they may be). Call me an optimist!

 

[Zappo]

That's the false dichotomy that's usually left implicit that I'm trying to bring to the surface. You can keep the simplicity and heroism of D&D while introducing "fixes" to some of the wackiness, wackiness that shatters suspension of disbelief (in many people) and doesn't model the genre well either.

The only false dichotomy here is wackiness versus fun. Wackiness is not a problem.

Last week I was talking with one of my players - one who has played D&D for ten years - and at a certain point I told him that I saw another system that tried to fix the 'problems' with D&D. He asked, "What problems?". I answered, "You know, things like a warrior gets a heal spell and it's only a minor cure, while a wizard gets the same spell and he's at top HP, or like the same warrior gets shot by twelve crossbows and a catapult and still fights normally...". He looked at me blankly and said: "So?"

 

[Thorin Stoutfoot]

4e is a good 10 years away

And to be honest, it doesn't have to be an improvement. 2e wasn't an improvement over 1e. Quite frankly, I don't see VP/WP in 4e, either. I could be surprised, but I don't see the value that the VP/WP would add to my games.

 

[techno]

That's the false dichotomy that's usually left implicit that I'm trying to bring to the surface. You can keep the simplicity and heroism of D&D while introducing "fixes" to some of the wackiness, wackiness that shatters suspension of disbelief (in many people) and doesn't model the genre well either.

I agree. Even with all of 3E's improvements, there are still plenty of ways to streamline its game mechanics, present the rules in a more clear and understandable manner, and remove some of the remaining silliness without ruining the "flavor" of D&D. Before 3E, I remember a lot of people claiming that WotC was going to ruin D&D by making changes to the system. Once 3E came out, these same people realized they were just plain wrong and most have admitted that the changes were for the best. 3E is great, but it is not perfect.

 

[Thorin Stoutfoot]

3e's not perfect but...

... HP is not one of the imperfections. It's a nice abstraction, and much nicer than a lot of others that I've seen. If I were to point to one flaw to be fixed, it's in the way item creation feats are setup. They're not broken, but they definitely could use improvement.

All in all, I think that few people have played D&D 3e enough to have enough experience to properly fix it at this point. Give it a few more years before calling for 4e.

 

[Psion]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: D&D 3e to be changed to new d20 rules? 4e coming!

Certainly the current incarnation of D&D has been playtested to make those character concepts (at each level) balanced and tenable.

Exactly. And if you fiddle with the system, unless you are very careful you will shift that balance. Which is fine if that is what you want... but for many people (I'd venture a majority of the current players), the current balance is just right.

Do you think there's no way to do that besides the exact way it's being done now?

No way? There might be some way. Do I think blindly shoving the benefit of armor over to DR is a step in the right direction? No, not really. In doing so, you are making a move that will take a lot of compensation in the rest of the system to maintain the same heroic fantasy feel, and with little justification for doing so inthe first place.

You have to ask yourself if they is really a reason for doing all of this work if your intent isn't to move it away from being heroic fantasy. If that is what you want, fine, but I don't think that should be a goal for 4e as that would be a different game.

I expect any 4e to have relatively minor tweaks.

Lose what ground? They brought a lot of people back to D&D by cleaning it up. Was there something wrong with that?

Lose what ground? Lose the ground they gained by 3e -- as you say, right there. What are you missing? There are lots of satisfied customers with the current feel and balance of 3e, but you think that they are going to want your version of "new coke."

 

[Psion]

Before 3E, I remember a lot of people claiming that WotC was going to ruin D&D by making changes to the system. Once 3E came out, these same people realized they were just plain wrong and most have admitted that the changes were for the best. 3E is great, but it is not perfect.

It's still not perfect... but they knew then that there are some things that they had best not mess with, and that will continue to be the case.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

While game wonks like myself care about mechanics, I think setting, artwork, and getting there first has more to do with the success of games than mechanics.

I cite as evidence AD&D 2e, Vampire, and Shadowrun as examples. None of them should brag about their mechanics IMNSHO. They succeeded on the quality and appeal of their settings.

 

[Psion]

While game wonks like myself care about mechanics, I think setting, artwork, and getting there first has more to do with the success of games than mechanics.

And again, I really disagree. All of those are secondary to the way the game plays; that is what keeps players coming back. And that has everything to do with mechanics and the feel of the game that they help create.

 

[EricNoah]

*snorts, wakes up*

4th edition, you say? I better start a website!