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<blockquote data-quote="Quickleaf" data-source="post: 6262953" data-attributes="member: 20323"><p>I have a divergent view - I think just doing a 4.5e version is ok, but it could go a lot further.</p><p></p><p><span style="color: DarkOrange"><strong>I'm going to basically brainstorm a new d20 game inspired a lot by 4e but some other games as well (BD&D, True20, Star Wars SAGA, DungeonWorld)...it's interesting, but it is long, so you've been warned!</strong></span> <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /></p><p></p><p>Instead I would design a ruleset that focuses on improvisation and player creativity, using lessons learned from 4e (hell, it could even be compatible with 4e, so you could use 4e monsters!) without seeking to replicate 4e. While a good DM and highly invested players *can* do an improv style game in 4e, the system really isn't encouraging, challenging, and rewarding creativity. Instead it encourages knowing the rules and building a strong character with those rules...I mean you have so so many powers that often have very subtle to no differences.</p><p></p><p>What I would do is make a streamlined version of the system with <span style="color: DarkOrange">zone-based combat</span> (like Old School Hack) and minis both supported...</p><p></p><p>First off, <span style="color: DarkOrange">initiative would be simultaneous</span> for three main reasons: </p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">First, it encourages players to talk ahead of time about creative strategies/tactics especially since they matter a bit more (since the dying Orc can still stab you!), and since players can coordinate and take turns amongst themselves as they please without worrying about where a Held Action puts them in the initiative count. It also makes ranged attacks a bigger part of gameplay compared to 4e which often is melee-focused.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Second, it reduces alpha-striking with an inflated initiative score and makes Surprise more important. I'd also be building several options you can choose when you gain Surprise to make it a bigger part of gameplay.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Third, no more tracking initiative! When you need to find our who goes first or a PC and monster are clearly trying to go before each other there can be an contested initiative check between the two or three or whatever.</li> </ul><p></p><p>I would incorporate a system of <span style="color: DarkOrange">upshots & complications.</span> Any success, whether on a skill check, ability check, attack roll, initiative check, or something else...any success by 5+ would earn you an upshot (kind of like True20's challenges) while any failure by 5+ would earn you a complication (hard coding the "fail by 5+" of some skills into the entire system. Every skill and many abilities would provide example upshots/complications to inspire you.</p><p></p><p>A missed attack would never mean "you miss, next." Instead a player would choose from several <span style="color: DarkOrange">missed attack options:</span></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"> study foe or situation and learn something.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"> gain advantage and +1 die damage against same enemy on an attack next round as you wait for their guard to drop, keep battering their shield, or just get more determined to kill them.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"> reposition within your current zone.</li> </ul><p></p><p>Conditions and powers with durations would have a bit less game-speak in them (e.g. Until the end of the target's next turn, or Save ends) and would lean more toward <span style="color: DarkOrange">narrative-based durations</span>. For example, a barbarian's rage could last "until the barbarian spends a round without attacking anything." This makes rage more interesting. The player is going to be constantly seeking out enemies to maximize their rage time, and at the same time the player will dislike enemies that impose conditions which would hamper the barbarian from their murder spree. And it makes sense, and might even lead to some fun roleplaying: "Cleegor, the fights over! Don't hit me!" "Grr! Cleegor sense more goblins coming...must smash!"</p><p></p><p>Modifiers would happen away from the table during character creation/monster building, and would be very very rare in play. Instead an<span style="color: DarkOrange"> advantage/disadvantage </span>system could be used. This could either be a non-stacking +5/-5 or it could steal from D&D Next (or really from 4e where the idea began...or perhaps 3e but I can't recall).</p><p></p><p>Player defined character<span style="color: DarkOrange"> keywords </span>would be part of character creation. When leveraged they can gain you advantage, but GM may call upon them to impose disadvantage, all depending on the situation. Keywords overall would play a more prominent role than in 4e.</p><p></p><p><span style="color: DarkOrange">Streamlined action economy:</span> Eliminating minor actions & reintroducing full-round actions & consolidating opportunities & immediate actions/interrupts into reactions. Also reduce the number of reaction-granting powers.</p><p></p><p>For creating a <span style="color: DarkOrange">condition track </span>(to consolidate several of 4e's conditions) it would look to Star Wars SAGA and True20.</p><p></p><p>Social skills would use a <span style="color: DarkOrange">Rich Burlew Diplomacy approach</span>, where the difficulty range is set by the GM but the actual DC is determined by the Player's creative approach to negotiating with the NPC. So it's not mainly about being a great thespian, it's not mainly about having Diplomacy +30, it IS mainly about thinking about your approach and being creative.</p><p></p><p>Investigative skills would use a <span style="color: DarkOrange">Dungeon World-esque "list of pointed/leading questions"</span> you can ask. Maybe the check DC you meet determines how many questions you get.</p><p></p><p>Speaking of skills, I think <span style="color: DarkOrange">every skill should also have a trained only use</span> (like detect magic for Arcana). For example, any PC can use Streetwise to check the tavern for rumors, but a PC trained in Streetwise can actually seed new rumors. Or any PC can use Heal to perform first aid (which would be a full-round action), but a PC trained in Heal can perform (magical medieval/renaissance-era) Surgery & Forensics.</p><p></p><p>Action points and healing surges would be merged into <span style="color: DarkOrange">hero points</span>. Every PC would start with 6, though that might increase at each tier. Like True20 provided a list of uses for "Conviction", each of the three main class archetypes (Expert, Warrior, Spellcaster) would have their own <span style="color: DarkOrange">stunt lists</span> for using hero points. There would be some overlap (Extra Action and Second Wind for example). Second Wind, btw, would be a free action and limited only by your remaining hero points. However, you wouldn't be able to use it when "bloodied" unless you were a Warrior.</p><p></p><p>Recovery of powers, hit points, and hero points would be slow unless the PCs were at a <span style="color: DarkOrange">sanctuary</span>. Differ sanctuaries could provide different recovery options/levels.</p><p></p><p>Thed be a unified progression table like in 4e. Every class would have sub-classes with clear identity, as well as <span style="color: DarkOrange">paragons paths with strong narrative identity</span>. Attack powers would be grouped by tier and when you have the option of gaining a new attack power you could instead folllow the <span style="color: DarkOrange">upgrade track of an attack power </span>you already know. Thus, there'd be less attack powers needed.</p><p></p><p>For basic attacks, I know the martial classes would all be: "Make a basic attack and...(insert something awesome)." Eliminating the need for a lot of power details. I'm thinking choose 2 basic attacks from a list of 5-6 should be sufficient. Could make the <span style="color: DarkOrange">fewer basic attacks more versatile </span>and perhaps introduce <span style="color: DarkOrange">more combat maneuvers</span> like Hamper, Lock Blades, Trip, etc.</p><p></p><p>For utility powers, they would instead include more passive features and less powers (especially for non-spellcasters), and would also be grouped by tier. So you'd have... ROGUE HEROIC FEATURES: choose one at 2nd level, 6th level, and 10th level. Then ROGUE PARAGON FEATURES...and so on. Also, the <span style="color: DarkOrange">utility powers would be mostly non-combat abilities </span>with some kind of meaning to the narrative (e.g. my barbarian / ranger knows how to make Animal Calls that allow him to relay simple messages to allies while hidden and scouting without giving away his position! Awesome!).</p><p></p><p>Races would also get what 4e never quite delivered on...a list of <span style="color: DarkOrange">racial features you choose from as you advance</span>...I'm thinking once per tier is about right. These would be classic identifying characteristics/traits, so for humans you might choose from: Ambition (exploiting the upshot/complication system), Dual-Classing, Heroism (bundling all those human action point feats), Adaptive Learning (letting you pick a new power/featu in the field), Perseverance (some combo of when you have no hero points/ when an ally goes down/ whe. You fail a death save/ when you fail by 5+ effects), Shrewdness (ask extra questions on a History/Insight check that have to do with power & risk), Versatility (take an extra Basic Attack from your class or a feat...this would basically be a repeat of a core human race feature).</p><p></p><p>Classes would be divided into <span style="color: DarkOrange">3 Archetypes</span>, each archetype would share common hero point Stunt List, have access to common feats, and choose from same pool of Paragon Paths (though some might be class-restricted). Multi-classing under this system would be much easier too. As far as which classes and sub-classes, I would go with this layout:</p><p></p><p>EXPERTS</p><p>Assassin - Holy Slayer, Poisoner, Shadow</p><p>Bard - Minstrel, Skald, Trickster</p><p>Monk - Iron Fist, something, Good Friar (because a Western "Friar Tuck" staff wielded option is needed for games lacking Asian awesomeness)</p><p>Rogue - Investigator, Scoundrel, Spy, Swashbuckler, Thief, Treasure Hunter (that should cover a good spread of rogue concepts, though it could go on forever!)</p><p></p><p>WARRIORS</p><p>Barbarian - Berserker, Horsemasher, and kill the Warden and take his stuff to inspire a 3rd build</p><p>Fighter - Archer, Defender, Duelist Man-at-Arms, Slayer, and the Warlord</p><p>Paladin - Cavalier, Blackguard, and the Avenger (see, more killing classes and taking their stuff!)</p><p>Ranger - Beastmaster, Hunter, Scout</p><p></p><p>SPELLCASTERS</p><p>Cleric - (using D&DNext god names as placeholders) Lifegiver, Lightbringer, Protector, Reaper, Stormcaller, Warbringer</p><p>Druid - Ritualistic, Shapeshifter, Summoner</p><p>Warlock - Cthulu Pact, Fey Pact, Infernal Pact, Grimdark Pact</p><p>Wizard - Arcanist, Evoker, Enchanter, Illusionist, Necromancer, Wild Mage</p><p></p><p>Notice that the Big 4 classes get more sub-class options since they've got the most history and thus the most diversity in D&D books. I chose to cut Sorcerer because there are strong improvisation options for all spellcasters that sort of make that class as conceived in 3e superfluous, and the Evoker sub-class basically gets similar features to the 4e Sorcerer.</p><p></p><p>Now, something like an Artificer or the 4e Vampire class is missing from this list, but those were later options that aren't critical to the game.</p><p></p><p><span style="color: DarkOrange">Feats -overhauled!</span> Feats would be fewer in number, you'd get less of them, and they'd get a big power up. However, I'd aggressively strip out feats which just inflate numbers - those sorts of things would be core class features or just cut out entirely.</p><p></p><p><span style="color: DarkOrange">Skill Challenges -overhauled!</span> Skill challengrs would get a complete overhaul inspired by Star Wars SAGA and, well, a blend of my experience, lots of Internet advice, and borrowed ideas from indie games like Fiasco, Dungeon World, and Gumshoe. They would be about interesting choices testing creativity instead of skill checks. The would be similar rules basis and then templates to make The Heist, The Chase, The Investiation, The Infiltration, The Travel Montage, etc.</p><p></p><p>Magic Items would be optional and wondrous without inflating core math.</p><p></p><p>-~-~-~-~-~-~-</p><p></p><p>That would be the starting point I'd work from, something rules-lighter, with fun character building options, yet firmly all about encouraging, challenging, and rewarding player creativity (as opposed to player skill or character skill). I'm still debating if I'd go the flat math route, though that would of course make it completely incompatible with 4e. But something like that I could see working under the d20 SRD. I don't know how popular it would ever be, but it certainly hints at a game I'd love to play!</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Quickleaf, post: 6262953, member: 20323"] I have a divergent view - I think just doing a 4.5e version is ok, but it could go a lot further. [COLOR=DarkOrange][B]I'm going to basically brainstorm a new d20 game inspired a lot by 4e but some other games as well (BD&D, True20, Star Wars SAGA, DungeonWorld)...it's interesting, but it is long, so you've been warned![/B][/COLOR] ;) Instead I would design a ruleset that focuses on improvisation and player creativity, using lessons learned from 4e (hell, it could even be compatible with 4e, so you could use 4e monsters!) without seeking to replicate 4e. While a good DM and highly invested players *can* do an improv style game in 4e, the system really isn't encouraging, challenging, and rewarding creativity. Instead it encourages knowing the rules and building a strong character with those rules...I mean you have so so many powers that often have very subtle to no differences. What I would do is make a streamlined version of the system with [COLOR=DarkOrange]zone-based combat[/COLOR] (like Old School Hack) and minis both supported... First off, [COLOR=DarkOrange]initiative would be simultaneous[/color] for three main reasons: [LIST] [*]First, it encourages players to talk ahead of time about creative strategies/tactics especially since they matter a bit more (since the dying Orc can still stab you!), and since players can coordinate and take turns amongst themselves as they please without worrying about where a Held Action puts them in the initiative count. It also makes ranged attacks a bigger part of gameplay compared to 4e which often is melee-focused. [*]Second, it reduces alpha-striking with an inflated initiative score and makes Surprise more important. I'd also be building several options you can choose when you gain Surprise to make it a bigger part of gameplay. [*]Third, no more tracking initiative! When you need to find our who goes first or a PC and monster are clearly trying to go before each other there can be an contested initiative check between the two or three or whatever. [/LIST] I would incorporate a system of [COLOR=DarkOrange]upshots & complications.[/color] Any success, whether on a skill check, ability check, attack roll, initiative check, or something else...any success by 5+ would earn you an upshot (kind of like True20's challenges) while any failure by 5+ would earn you a complication (hard coding the "fail by 5+" of some skills into the entire system. Every skill and many abilities would provide example upshots/complications to inspire you. A missed attack would never mean "you miss, next." Instead a player would choose from several [COLOR=DarkOrange]missed attack options:[/color] [LIST] [*] study foe or situation and learn something. [*] gain advantage and +1 die damage against same enemy on an attack next round as you wait for their guard to drop, keep battering their shield, or just get more determined to kill them. [*] reposition within your current zone. [/LIST] Conditions and powers with durations would have a bit less game-speak in them (e.g. Until the end of the target's next turn, or Save ends) and would lean more toward [COLOR=DarkOrange]narrative-based durations[/color]. For example, a barbarian's rage could last "until the barbarian spends a round without attacking anything." This makes rage more interesting. The player is going to be constantly seeking out enemies to maximize their rage time, and at the same time the player will dislike enemies that impose conditions which would hamper the barbarian from their murder spree. And it makes sense, and might even lead to some fun roleplaying: "Cleegor, the fights over! Don't hit me!" "Grr! Cleegor sense more goblins coming...must smash!" Modifiers would happen away from the table during character creation/monster building, and would be very very rare in play. Instead an[COLOR=DarkOrange] advantage/disadvantage [/color]system could be used. This could either be a non-stacking +5/-5 or it could steal from D&D Next (or really from 4e where the idea began...or perhaps 3e but I can't recall). Player defined character[COLOR=DarkOrange] keywords [/color]would be part of character creation. When leveraged they can gain you advantage, but GM may call upon them to impose disadvantage, all depending on the situation. Keywords overall would play a more prominent role than in 4e. [COLOR=DarkOrange]Streamlined action economy:[/color] Eliminating minor actions & reintroducing full-round actions & consolidating opportunities & immediate actions/interrupts into reactions. Also reduce the number of reaction-granting powers. For creating a [COLOR=DarkOrange]condition track [/color](to consolidate several of 4e's conditions) it would look to Star Wars SAGA and True20. Social skills would use a [COLOR=DarkOrange]Rich Burlew Diplomacy approach[/color], where the difficulty range is set by the GM but the actual DC is determined by the Player's creative approach to negotiating with the NPC. So it's not mainly about being a great thespian, it's not mainly about having Diplomacy +30, it IS mainly about thinking about your approach and being creative. Investigative skills would use a [COLOR=DarkOrange]Dungeon World-esque "list of pointed/leading questions"[/color] you can ask. Maybe the check DC you meet determines how many questions you get. Speaking of skills, I think [COLOR=DarkOrange]every skill should also have a trained only use[/color] (like detect magic for Arcana). For example, any PC can use Streetwise to check the tavern for rumors, but a PC trained in Streetwise can actually seed new rumors. Or any PC can use Heal to perform first aid (which would be a full-round action), but a PC trained in Heal can perform (magical medieval/renaissance-era) Surgery & Forensics. Action points and healing surges would be merged into [COLOR=DarkOrange]hero points[/color]. Every PC would start with 6, though that might increase at each tier. Like True20 provided a list of uses for "Conviction", each of the three main class archetypes (Expert, Warrior, Spellcaster) would have their own [COLOR=DarkOrange]stunt lists[/color] for using hero points. There would be some overlap (Extra Action and Second Wind for example). Second Wind, btw, would be a free action and limited only by your remaining hero points. However, you wouldn't be able to use it when "bloodied" unless you were a Warrior. Recovery of powers, hit points, and hero points would be slow unless the PCs were at a [COLOR=DarkOrange]sanctuary[/color]. Differ sanctuaries could provide different recovery options/levels. Thed be a unified progression table like in 4e. Every class would have sub-classes with clear identity, as well as [COLOR=DarkOrange]paragons paths with strong narrative identity[/color]. Attack powers would be grouped by tier and when you have the option of gaining a new attack power you could instead folllow the [COLOR=DarkOrange]upgrade track of an attack power [/color]you already know. Thus, there'd be less attack powers needed. For basic attacks, I know the martial classes would all be: "Make a basic attack and...(insert something awesome)." Eliminating the need for a lot of power details. I'm thinking choose 2 basic attacks from a list of 5-6 should be sufficient. Could make the [COLOR=DarkOrange]fewer basic attacks more versatile [/color]and perhaps introduce [COLOR=DarkOrange]more combat maneuvers[/color] like Hamper, Lock Blades, Trip, etc. For utility powers, they would instead include more passive features and less powers (especially for non-spellcasters), and would also be grouped by tier. So you'd have... ROGUE HEROIC FEATURES: choose one at 2nd level, 6th level, and 10th level. Then ROGUE PARAGON FEATURES...and so on. Also, the [COLOR=DarkOrange]utility powers would be mostly non-combat abilities [/color]with some kind of meaning to the narrative (e.g. my barbarian / ranger knows how to make Animal Calls that allow him to relay simple messages to allies while hidden and scouting without giving away his position! Awesome!). Races would also get what 4e never quite delivered on...a list of [COLOR=DarkOrange]racial features you choose from as you advance[/color]...I'm thinking once per tier is about right. These would be classic identifying characteristics/traits, so for humans you might choose from: Ambition (exploiting the upshot/complication system), Dual-Classing, Heroism (bundling all those human action point feats), Adaptive Learning (letting you pick a new power/featu in the field), Perseverance (some combo of when you have no hero points/ when an ally goes down/ whe. You fail a death save/ when you fail by 5+ effects), Shrewdness (ask extra questions on a History/Insight check that have to do with power & risk), Versatility (take an extra Basic Attack from your class or a feat...this would basically be a repeat of a core human race feature). Classes would be divided into [COLOR=DarkOrange]3 Archetypes[/color], each archetype would share common hero point Stunt List, have access to common feats, and choose from same pool of Paragon Paths (though some might be class-restricted). Multi-classing under this system would be much easier too. As far as which classes and sub-classes, I would go with this layout: EXPERTS Assassin - Holy Slayer, Poisoner, Shadow Bard - Minstrel, Skald, Trickster Monk - Iron Fist, something, Good Friar (because a Western "Friar Tuck" staff wielded option is needed for games lacking Asian awesomeness) Rogue - Investigator, Scoundrel, Spy, Swashbuckler, Thief, Treasure Hunter (that should cover a good spread of rogue concepts, though it could go on forever!) WARRIORS Barbarian - Berserker, Horsemasher, and kill the Warden and take his stuff to inspire a 3rd build Fighter - Archer, Defender, Duelist Man-at-Arms, Slayer, and the Warlord Paladin - Cavalier, Blackguard, and the Avenger (see, more killing classes and taking their stuff!) Ranger - Beastmaster, Hunter, Scout SPELLCASTERS Cleric - (using D&DNext god names as placeholders) Lifegiver, Lightbringer, Protector, Reaper, Stormcaller, Warbringer Druid - Ritualistic, Shapeshifter, Summoner Warlock - Cthulu Pact, Fey Pact, Infernal Pact, Grimdark Pact Wizard - Arcanist, Evoker, Enchanter, Illusionist, Necromancer, Wild Mage Notice that the Big 4 classes get more sub-class options since they've got the most history and thus the most diversity in D&D books. I chose to cut Sorcerer because there are strong improvisation options for all spellcasters that sort of make that class as conceived in 3e superfluous, and the Evoker sub-class basically gets similar features to the 4e Sorcerer. Now, something like an Artificer or the 4e Vampire class is missing from this list, but those were later options that aren't critical to the game. [COLOR=DarkOrange]Feats -overhauled![/color] Feats would be fewer in number, you'd get less of them, and they'd get a big power up. However, I'd aggressively strip out feats which just inflate numbers - those sorts of things would be core class features or just cut out entirely. [COLOR=DarkOrange]Skill Challenges -overhauled![/color] Skill challengrs would get a complete overhaul inspired by Star Wars SAGA and, well, a blend of my experience, lots of Internet advice, and borrowed ideas from indie games like Fiasco, Dungeon World, and Gumshoe. They would be about interesting choices testing creativity instead of skill checks. The would be similar rules basis and then templates to make The Heist, The Chase, The Investiation, The Infiltration, The Travel Montage, etc. Magic Items would be optional and wondrous without inflating core math. -~-~-~-~-~-~- That would be the starting point I'd work from, something rules-lighter, with fun character building options, yet firmly all about encouraging, challenging, and rewarding player creativity (as opposed to player skill or character skill). I'm still debating if I'd go the flat math route, though that would of course make it completely incompatible with 4e. But something like that I could see working under the d20 SRD. I don't know how popular it would ever be, but it certainly hints at a game I'd love to play! [/QUOTE]
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