D&D 4.5E (Not Essentials)

Lokiare

Banned
Banned
What fixes would be required if WotC were to suddenly drop 5E and try to make a 4.5E that fixes all the problems of 4E without completely destroying it and starting over from scratch?

What fixes would you want and what features would you like to see?

For me I'd like to see:

A way to make a class have any role. So you could have defender Wizards and Striker Paladins with just a few choices at character creation.

A way to speed up combat without losing the range of choices for each character.

Good software tools to simulate all the math and rolling.
 

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darjr

I crit!
a basic game like the d&d gamma world box sets, compatible but not the same rules, especially where it counts for new folks and casual players. completely self contained up to tenth level. probably not the card mechanic however
 

Dungeoneer

First Post
Simplified combat would be top of the list. I love 4e, but I am so over two-hour combats where I have to try to remember dozens of status modifiers.

Arguably toward the end, 4e was already moving towards getting rid of roles and AEDU. I don't mind roles but don't think they were necessary so I would be okay if they were dropped. There are a lot of interesting things you can do outside AEDU so that would be cool too.

Interestingly, all of these things essentially describe 13th Age.
 

What fixes would be required if WotC were to suddenly drop 5E and try to make a 4.5E that fixes all the problems of 4E without completely destroying it and starting over from scratch?

It won't happen. Not from WotC.

What fixes would you want and what features would you like to see?

I'd like to see a lot of failed ideas thrown out. To give a linked pair of examples: in a Greyhawk 4e campaign where I'm a player, one PC is a bravura warlord. He has an at-will power called Brash Assault. Here's the effect:

The target can make a melee basic attack against you as a free action and has combat advantage for the attack. If the target makes this attack, an ally of your choice within 5 squares of the target can make a basic attack against the target as a free action and has combat advantage for the attack.

That works out alright. Not my favorite power, as it relies on enemy behavior rather than PC behavior, but it will work reasonably well, as enemies seeing you in a "weak position" will usually try to take advantage of it.

There's also a Dragon Magazine feat, Harlequin Style. The relevant text:
Brash Assault (warlord): Against the target of this exploit, you gain a bonus to defenses equal to your Charisma modifier until the start of your next turn.

So you can get that free attack, at a significant penalty. Almost like an obvious trick. Unsurprisingly, the DM, "M", stopped attacking. It took two sessions before the player retrained the feat into something that wasn't taking from being a warlord. I don't know why that feat even exists.

Something similar came up in my campaign. "M's" PC died two sessions ago, and his new PC, introduced last session, was a heavily-armored fighter. One of their foes had cool armor, and I had previously asked what type of armor it should be (so the PCs could pry the prize off his corpse, not that it was easy). But none of the PCs wore heavy armor except the new PC, so no one had been able to request the armor. I gave the NPC some coolish armor, and felt a bit bad because he was a higher-level soldier, and I just gave him +1 AC.

"M" wanted armor that gives you +2 to defenses against anyone you mark. In other words, you optimize yourself out of a job! Enemies would start ignoring his marks because the only penalty to that is Combat Challenge, which enemies won't always know about (at least not until you punish them for the first time). I explained my objection and said no to that. He chose another type of armor instead, and (due to an adventure-prescribed plot event) the armor actually changed to suit his needs.

4e got too big, and there's a ton of crud gumming up the works. Too many poorly-designed, weak and even stupid (vampire!) classes, plus the same thing when it comes to feats, items, powers, etc.

If someone Pathfinderized 4e, for me it would be a way to get a far more limited Character Builder. I hate the CB. I think it takes away DM authority. Apparently I will never be able to teach my players to avoid certain sources, and instead have to audit character sheets and say "that power/feat/item/whatever" is broken. Broken being a relative term, as 4e's math does work far better than it's predecessor's, but still.

For me I'd like to see:

A way to make a class have any role. So you could have defender Wizards and Striker Paladins with just a few choices at character creation.

I wouldn't like to see that. If there needs to be a wizard defender, that should be its own class. Actually, that is it's own class, the swordmage, and I have one in my campaign. It works pretty well. (There actually is a striker wizard of sorts, the Evoker subclass, although it's striker feature is fairly weaksauce.) There's no "striker paladin", although an avenger is sort of close. If there needs to be a striker paladin, I'd like to see a new class, not a modification on a defender. I don't want to see a heavily armored striker that can still take powers that give it Divine Sanction.

A way to speed up combat without losing the range of choices for each character.

That would require rewriting all the powers, not that I would have a huge problem with that, as long as rewrite doesn't mean "throw out everything cool". If there were no off-turn or minor action attack powers other than class abilities, I'd be happy. Does the game really need Disrupting Shot? Or a runepriest's ability to blind someone as they attack an ally?

I'd also like to see basic changes to a few things, like action points. They're supposed to be powerful, but I start thinking they're just cheese.

Good software tools to simulate all the math and rolling.

Yuck. I have other problems with the CB other than the one I mentioned above. If you have to use a CB to play a character, you haven't actually learned the game. :( I had to teach a 4e player (who later became a DM) how to play without the CB, as they hadn't even learned proficiency bonuses because the CB did that automatically for him.

I'm bad at math. Another player complained about how long we were taking totaling up the dice, and he rolls attacks and damage simultaneously. It took me about three sessions to master rolling attack and damage dice simultaneously, and I say this as someone who got 52% in grade 12 math. A big deal, because my current PC is a wizard, and all but one of his attacks is multi-target. This sped up my DMing too, although alas all that rolling still overwhelms me when I'm playing a solo monster. (I will probably use average damage for all solos I use rather than rolling for damage.)
 

adamc

First Post
What fixes would be required if WotC were to suddenly drop 5E and try to make a 4.5E that fixes all the problems of 4E without completely destroying it and starting over from scratch?

What fixes would you want and what features would you like to see?
Online tools that didn't depend on silverlight and worked on Android/iOS/Linux, and/or apps for phones that made at-table character management easier.

A subscription level that included all the published material and had decent indexing of it.

Fixes to some of the gimped classes (e.g., avenger).

Official fixes to help battles play out more rapidly.

Otherwise, I'm pretty good with 4e. I wish they would start publishing miniatures again, but that's not really 4e-specific.
 

fjw70

Adventurer
Get rid of minor action. Most things that are minor actions now (marking, hunter's quarry, curse, etc.) would be free actions and things like sustain and healing word would be move actions.

Rules to prevent condition stacking.
 

captpike

First Post
my pet list of things that shall never pass:

1) every class having a choices of two primary stats, say a wizard being able to be wis or int primary. then their secondary stat can be either a third stat or the primary option they did not pick.

2) every class is made to be able to do two roles, which one is up to the resources picked, and in-combat choices made by the players. so a fighter is a striker-defender. he can be all defender, all striker or a combination of the two.

some may be able to do a function of a third role, but that would be a rare exception (palidans can heal but not other leaderly things)

3) there would be some unity by power source.

every power source would have things that tie them together, all arcane classes get cantrips, every marshal class has move action "tricks" ect

each power sources has its own power structure, with source power options.

4) NO NO NO attacks that are not standard actions EVER, and no double tap powers (like twin strike). they screw the balance up too much, take too long. there are better ways of give strikers more damage.

5) no more area bursts, they grow too fast when you start enlarging them (why its all but impossible to do) instead have area blasts (so a area blast 3 is 3x3) and add a mechanic to add creatures that are touching the blast to the attack. so a area blast 4+1 in 10 would mean 4x4 squares in 10 squares plus one creature who is touching the blast.

6) give all controlers ways to expand their AOE attacks, as a class feature, but at good cost (like half their damage)

7) use condition tracks, this would let you do something like have elites move the condition down one, solos move it down twice.
 


C4

Explorer
7) use condition tracks, this would let you do something like have elites move the condition down one, solos move it down twice.
It also allows controllers to have a somewhat standardized shtick, like every other role. Anyone can use a daze power, but radiant daze powers become stun powers in the hands of an invoker! (Well, it's not quite that awesome, but you get the idea. ;))

I'm so glad my condition track idea is catching on. :)
 

captpike

First Post
It also allows controllers to have a somewhat standardized shtick, like every other role. Anyone can use a daze power, but radiant daze powers become stun powers in the hands of an invoker! (Well, it's not quite that awesome, but you get the idea. ;))

I'm so glad my condition track idea is catching on. :)

it is awesome, it solves so many problems, and lets solo's be made that controllers can do awesome things to but not make useless (a pet peeve of mind is doing nothing at all when fighting a solo because I am playing a controller)
 

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