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Message: <blockquote data-quote="ECMO3" data-source="post: 9246729" data-attributes="member: 7030563">I have not seen this in my experiences.I don't know if power is totally irrelevant to players, that would require insight I don't have.  I can say the many players I generally play with do absolutely make choices based around other things, but IME those players who choose less powerful choices are not frustrated over class selection, including me. I play about 20-30 hours of D&D a week for the last several years, and there are precious few players I can remember that got visibly frustrated due to their class choices or  their objective weakness compared  to other PCs at the table and as a DM I have never had a player express this to me.I have seen two players I can remember get frustrated with their builds.  Both of these players "optmized" their characters using online guides around some very narrow class mechanics and those optimizations did not play out in the campaign.   One with a V.Human GWM-PAM Fighter (maybe with Barbarian levels?) on a 1-13 campaign where we never found a magic polearm.  Another was an Eladrin Undead Warlock-Fey Wanderer Ranger in a level 16 one shot who specialized in fear or charm effects and we ended up fighting a bunch of enemies immune to those conditions.  Both of these "optimized" characters were overshadowed by other more pedestrian PCs, in the first case including less "optimized" martials who were pretty happy with their classes.I can put a 3rd example in here, although I think it was a player problem, more than a class problem - I played in 2 games with a player who played a Warlock in one and then a Wizard in another.  He got frustrated when other characters could do things he could not. Specifically he got upset when the Scout Rogue I was playing used cunning action and asked the DM if he could homebrew the rules so every class could hide as a bonus action, he aslo got upset that Rouge I was playing had a much better Deception than he did (14 Charisma and expertise).  Finally in a long fight (as  a Warlock) where he ran out of spells but our Wizard didn't and asked the DM if he could just ask his Patron for another spell slot, then it turned to how about if I make a roll for it to get another spell.  Then playing as  a Wizard he asked the DM to allow him to use 2 actions because the Fighter in the party just did.  This player was clearly frustrated with being overshadowed, but in this case I think it was a player personality problem and giving cunning action to a  Warlock or action surge to a Wizard were things he wanted, but hardly class weaknesses, when you consider what he did have.  This player was frustrated about the limits of his classes and being overshadowed by other PCs, but he was not playing "weak" classes and as a Wizard he was actually playing the strongest class and was still upset.I would agree with this, but I don't know that there is a better metric that evaluates how players like design.How would they get the data on the second?Also while I agree with your hypothesis here I am not convinced if they had the data it would indicate players did not like the design of most of the martials.  I think it would actually indicate the opposite, except for Monk.  IME most players are very happy with the martial design except for Monk (I am personally happy with Monk, but I'm probably the exception there).It is possible I am wrong, but the playtests do offer place for written commentary, as did the original playtest.  Presumably players are providing feedback on design there and presumably WOTC is incorporating it.  They certainly have changed UA Wizards, Monks and Druids a lot duing this current playtest.  That is presumably because they were told by players that the players did not like things about those classes.On the other hand they did not listen to my feedback that weapon mastery sucks and should not be incorporated.  Since they disregarded that, I think I am probably in the minority of players who think this is a bad design.I would agree with that.  This is why I base most of my opinions on contentment on what I see at the table.</blockquote>

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