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<blockquote data-quote="EzekielRaiden" data-source="post: 9253672" data-attributes="member: 6790260">The claim originally made was that the rules can lead to undesirable player behaviors. Rather more intense examples (e.g. Paladins being jerks) were cited, which led to a counter claim that amounted to, as referenced, rejecting as ridiculous the idea that the presence of an incentive or the absence of penalty could somehow mind control players into always doing some particular undesirable behavior, and thus rejecting the original claim as patently ridiculous.I gave examples of well-known complaints about 5e player behavior rooted in the system's design, showing that the original claim is not ridiculous at its core. Whether or not this, or any other system's design, causes PVP was (explicitly) not my concern. The core claim—rules design shapes player behavior and can easily lead to players doing things that have detrimental effect on others' experiences, whether that be the other players or the DM, possibly requiring significant DM effort to address—is sound, contra [USER=6879661]@TheSword[/USER] 's incredulity on the subject.And, for the record, I don't see &quot;whack-a-mole&quot; healing as a problem. I do see the 5MWD as a problem. WotC happens to agree with me on these issues, though not on how to address the latter.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="EzekielRaiden, post: 9253672, member: 6790260"] The claim originally made was that the rules can lead to undesirable player behaviors. Rather more intense examples (e.g. Paladins being jerks) were cited, which led to a counter claim that amounted to, as referenced, rejecting as ridiculous the idea that the presence of an incentive or the absence of penalty could somehow mind control players into always doing some particular undesirable behavior, and thus rejecting the original claim as patently ridiculous. I gave examples of well-known complaints about 5e player behavior rooted in the system's design, showing that the original claim is not ridiculous at its core. Whether or not this, or any other system's design, causes PVP was (explicitly) not my concern. The core claim—rules design shapes player behavior and can easily lead to players doing things that have detrimental effect on others' experiences, whether that be the other players or the DM, possibly requiring significant DM effort to address—is sound, contra [USER=6879661]@TheSword[/USER] 's incredulity on the subject. And, for the record, I don't see "whack-a-mole" healing as a problem. I [I]do[/I] see the 5MWD as a problem. WotC happens to agree with me on these issues, though not on how to address the latter. [/QUOTE]

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