D&D bundle skills?

[Nathal]

I like the idea of Bundle skills, like those found in Gygax's Lejendary Adventure. In that game, each bundled ability subsumes many skills. Some are evocative of a certain background, like (as he has named them) Chivalry, Urbane, Savagery, or Rustic. Others are more specific, but still flexible in application, such as Hunt, Metallurgy, or Pretense. And some are more like physical or mental attributes, such as Physique, Stealth, Luck, and Scrutiny. In the LA game the Game Master can call upon a background oriented ability or a more skill oriented ability to determine an outcome, and all are percentage based.

If you were going to condense the D&D 3rd Edition skills into bundles, how would you go about it? Some games like C&C do just fine with no "skills" at all, so to speak. I'm just curious to see some opinions here from people who are also fans of the bundled skill idea.

Heck, would a game work okay if the only "skills" were bundled into (and I admit ridiculously narrowed) broad categories like the following (the word effort is in place of what I would have called 'feat', but I want to avoid confusion here)? Note that what I write below is similar to C&C's "prime" system, the Siege engine close in spirit to what I'm thinking about. I wonder at a hybrid of that thought with the bundled skills ala LA, but integrating the common set of D&D skills...I'm not sure I'm even making sense, but it's past my bed time...


Mental efforts (anything having to do with intelligence)
Physical efforts
Class knowledge efforts

what else?
How would you do it, if you'd bother?

 

[Tonguez]

In the 2d10 Homebrew system I was tinkering with before d20 came out I replaced Ability scores with 'aptitudes' being

Power - anything involving muscular effort, endurance and Fortitude (Str/Con)
Dexterity - hand eye coordination used for handling weapons and manual tasks (Dex)
Agility - whole body control, balance, flexibility, Reflexes and Speed (Dex)
Perception - observation skills (wis)
Scholastics - learning and wits (Int)
Intuition - Sanity, Will, empathy and insight (wis?)
Presence - charisma and influence (cha)

Anyway a PC could spend points to develop a Proficiency which added to the base aptitude eg

A Ranger might have a base Agility of 17 to which he adds Prowl proficiency +2 giving a final Prowl aptitude of 19

in attempting to Prowl (move silently and remain hidden) the Ranger would make roll 2d10 and attempt to get under 19. Sometimes a Difficulty number would be added to the role

eg our Ranger wants to prowl around an Orc camp with 3 guards which have a difficulty of 9 he rolls 2d10 and gets a 12 (+9 = 21!) failed by 2 means his been heard but not yet located by a guard!

Anyway I didn't have a definitive list of Proficeincies so allowed PCs to choose anything they liked - you want a Proficiency in butterfly catching okay, lets base it on dexterity

 

[Nathal]

Anybody else? I guess bundle skills don't work well with D20 in the minds of most?

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

Iron Lore seems to be working towards it.

True 20 uses something along those lines.

I think it works well, but it needs a deeper context than most house rules. Iron Lore balances it out by kicking out magic weapons. True 20 is just simpler in general.

Skill ranks are my favorite aspect of 3ed, but there are too many skills that seem related enough that they could use some simplification. Hide and Move Silently are certainly two that leap to mind.

 

[Frostmarrow]

I'd do something akin to what you describe but I'd drop the dice roll. If you got scrutiny the DM will hand you info via that ability. Perhaps that info could just as well be handed to another player via Chivalry - but it'd filtered differently.

 

[Inconsequenti-AL]

I like that idea... Find it appealing. I'd be tempted to condense a broad range of skills into one, but only allow them to work under farily narrow circumstances.

Not sure if this is how it works in Gygax's version but: Chivalry might cover Diplomacy, Sense Motive, Gather Information and Knowledge checks - but is generally only usable on feudal style nobility. Perhaps allow half the ranks to apply in related situations - i.e. for Chivalry in a typical medieval setting it'd 'half work' on clergy or soldiers. Trader would be very similar, but works fully on merchants, 'half effect' on nobles and villagers?

Will have to have a think about this!

Already use a couple of very simple skill bundles in a previous game. Hide and Move Silently are Sneak. Listen and Spot are Perception. Found it didn't upset anything and gave PCs a few more skill points to play around with.

Guess you could make the categories as broad as you like and it'd still work? I would think the fewer there are the less varied characters would appear?

/Rambling

 

[Nathal]

Iron Lore seems to be working towards it.

True 20 uses something along those lines.

Is Iron Lore a Malhavoc product? What is True 20?

 

[BiggusGeekus]

Is Iron Lore a Malhavoc product?

Yep.

What is True 20?

The game system that supports Blue Rose.

 

[Tonguez]

Is Iron Lore a Malhavoc product?

Yep.



The game system that supports Blue Rose.

I thought Blue Rose was a d20 system - what are the differences?

 

[der_kluge]

HARP has this. They're called Training Packages.

In HARP, a Training Package is a collection of skills. All of which are purchased at a 25% discount. A training package is grouped up into a collection of related things, sort of like a profession, or calling. Things like "Bounty hunter" or "charlatan" or "scoundrel", stuff like that. It's a great concept.

And no, I'm not sure it would work very well in D20, but it might. You'd just have to create numerous packages. The caveat in HARP, at least, is that you have to buy the entire package, and if the number of ranks in the TP exceed your maximum ranks, you just lose them. So, you have to kind of gauge when taking them is good for you. Often they work best when taken at first level, since you have more skill points to spend on them.