D&D General D&D Combat is fictionless

[Maxperson]

‘The characters all stood immobilized in fear/awe at the approaching orc horde.’

An entire party of experienced adventurers are all going to be immobilized in fear/awe at 30 orcs? That doesn't make narrative sense in a game where the vast majority of the time you are playing heroes. That and immobilization and fear/awe are mechanical effects in addition to the narrative, not just narrative ones.

I'm not even an adventurer and you can bet your last dollar that I'd be running my rear off as soon as I saw them, not standing around.

 

[Garthanos]

I'm not even an adventurer and you can bet your last dollar that I'd be running my rear off as soon as I saw them, not standing around.

Well fight or flight response in conflict might immobilize ... if you have no fight nothing to debate

 

[FrogReaver]

An entire party of experienced adventurers are all going to be immobilized in fear/awe at 30 orcs? That doesn't make narrative sense in a game where the vast majority of the time you are playing heroes. That and immobilization and fear/awe are mechanical effects in addition to the narrative, not just narrative ones.

I'm not even an adventurer and you can bet your last dollar that I'd be running my rear off as soon as I saw them, not standing around.

Makes sense to me. Our bodies don’t always react the way we want

And one can be immobilized or frightened without suffering mechanical immobilization and mechanical fear.

 

[clearstream]

No. if I had to summarize it to a line it would be ‘game mechanics not flowing from fiction.’ Though even that’s a bit of a gross oversimplification.

Is it right to say that in your games, the game mechanics are expected to flow from fiction, and fiction is not expected to flow from game mechanics?

There is causality in the real world though and it’s the real world where fiction is generated.

Causality in the real world is not at issue. I oversimplified before. I think the locations of causality in an RPG are

1. in the game mechanics - as they are applied - where rolling AC or higher with an attack might be seen as causing the resultant decrement to Hit Points
2. in the cognitive processes involved in the to-and-fro of language between participants, that spins their shared narrative

Lighting a fire in the TTRPG game-world, causes no fires to be lit. Rather it describes something that seems familiar to us, that we're ready to accept and picture. That's one reason why magic works so well in FRPG, it's acausal.

I also disagree that the initiative mechanic represents anything at all about stumbling.

I had in mind that it is a Dexterity (Initiative) ability check. I think I mentioned that up-thread. Therefore at my table, I am comfortable including stumbling in the narrative emerging for us out of play.

Still doesn’t seem to apply to this discussion.

I can see how it applies. You do not see how it applies. I will let the point go because we can probably agree that it is not helping us reach a common understanding.

 

[clearstream]

‘The characters all stood immobilized in fear/awe at the approaching orc horde.’

We might want to discuss whether you are making the strong claim that appears in your OP, of fictionlessness, or the milder claim of unsatisfying fiction? It sounds like have moved to the milder claim. Is that your intent?

 

[Maxperson]

And one can be immobilized or frightened without suffering mechanical immobilization and mechanical fear.

Not in D&D. In D&D those are both mechanical conditions and conditions that are applied for different reasons, none of which include initiative.

 

[FrogReaver]

Not in D&D. In D&D those are both mechanical conditions and conditions that are applied for different reasons, none of which include initiative.

Those are also fictional conditions. One doesn’t have to be under the fear condition to be frightened of the ancient dragon at level 5.

 

[clearstream]

Not in D&D. In D&D those are both mechanical conditions and conditions that are applied for different reasons, none of which include initiative.

More accurately, it can be confusing to use the condition keywords when not referring to the conditions. Nothing mandates that one cannot.

 

[FrogReaver]

We might want to discuss whether you are making the strong claim that appears in your OP, of fictionlessness, or the milder claim of unsatisfying fiction? It sounds like have moved to the milder claim. Is that your intent?

I still think fictionless is a good way to describe basing decisions on mechanics instead of the fiction.

Obviously the claim of fictionlessness didn’t mean no fiction whatsoever in any capacity. Orcs are fiction. The fighter, fiction. The battlefield they inhabit, fiction. Etc.

 

[FrogReaver]

Is it right to say that in your games, the game mechanics are expected to flow from fiction, and fiction is not expected to flow from game mechanics?

no. It would be both. Fiction -> game mechanics -> fiction

Causality in the real world is not at issue. I oversimplified before. I think the locations of causality in an RPG are

1. in the game mechanics - as they are applied - where rolling AC or higher with an attack might be seen as causing the resultant decrement to Hit Points
2. in the cognitive processes involved in the to-and-fro of language between participants, that spins their shared narrative

Is my decision based on the fiction or the mechanics? That’s causality and it’s a big deal.

Lighting a fire in the TTRPG game-world, causes no fires to be lit. Rather it describes something that seems familiar to us, that we're ready to accept and picture. That's one reason why magic works so well in FRPG, it's acausal.

You have some false notion of my issue and keep trying to force your presupposition into it. That’s why we are talking past each other.

I had in mind that it is a Dexterity (Initiative) ability check. I think I mentioned that up-thread. Therefore at my table, I am comfortable including stumbling in the narrative emerging for us out of play.

it’s nothing to do with comfort. It has to do with decision making causality.

I can see how it applies. You do not see how it applies. I will let the point go because we can probably agree that it is not helping us reach a common understanding.

Okay