D&D Historian Benn Riggs On Gary Gygax & Sexism

D&D historian Ben Riggs delved into the facts.

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The recent book The Making of Original Dungeons & Dragons 1970-1977 talks about the early years of D&D. In the book, authors Jon Peterson and Jason Tondro talk about the way the game, and its writers, approached certain issues. Not surprisingly, this revelation received aggressive "pushback" on social media because, well, that sort of thing does--in fact, one designer who worked with Gygax at the time labelled it "slanderous".

D&D historian Ben Riggs--author of Slaying the Dragon--delved into the facts. Note that the below was posted on Twitter, in that format, not as an article.

D&D Co-Creator Gary Gygax was Sexist. Talking About it is Key to Preserving his Legacy.

The internet has been rending its clothes and gnashing its teeth over the introduction to an instant classic of TTRPG history, The Making of Original D&D 1970-1977. Published by Wizards of the Coast, it details the earliest days of D&D’s creation using amazing primary source materials.

Why then has the response been outrage from various corners of the internet? Well authors Jon Peterson and Jason Tondro mention that early D&D made light of slavery, disparaged women, and gave Hindu deities hit points. They also repeated Wizard’s disclaimer for legacy content which states:"These depictions were wrong then and are wrong today. This content is presented as it was originally created, because to do otherwise would be the same as claiming these prejudices never existed."

In response to this, an army of grognards swarmed social media to bite their shields and bellow. Early D&D author Rob Kuntz described Peterson and Tondro’s work as “slanderous.” On his Castle Oldskull blog, Kent David Kelly called it “disparagement.” These critics are accusing Peterson and Tondro of dishonesty. Lying, not to put too fine a point on it.So, are they lying? Are they making stuff up about Gary Gygax and early D&D?

Well, let's look at a specific example of what Peterson and Tondro describe as “misogyny “ from 1975's Greyhawk. Greyhawk was the first supplement ever produced for D&D. Written by Gary Gygax and Rob Kuntz, the same Rob Kuntz who claimed slander above, it was a crucial text in the history of the game. For example, it debuted the thief character class. It also gave the game new dragons, among them the King of Lawful Dragons and the Queen of Chaotic Dragons. The male dragon is good, and female dragon is evil. (See Appendix 1 below for more.)

GR9iKUjWsAAete8.jpeg

It is a repetition of the old trope that male power is inherently good, and female power is inherently evil. (Consider the connotations of the words witch and wizard, with witches being evil by definition, for another example.)

Now so-called defenders of Gygax and Kuntz will say that my reading of the above text makes me a fool who wouldn’t know dragon’s breath from a virtue signal. I am ruining D&D with my woke wokeness. Gygax and Kuntz were just building a fun game, and decades later, Peterson and Tondro come along to crap on their work by screeching about misogyny.

(I would also point out that as we are all white men of a certain age talking about misogyny, the worst we can expect is to be flamed online. Women often doing the same thing get rape or death threats.)

Critics of their work would say that Peterson and Tondro are reading politics into D&D. Except that when we return to the Greyhawk text, we see that it was actually Gygax and Kuntz who put “politics” into D&D.

The text itself comments on the fact that the lawful dragon is male, and the chaotic one is female. Gygax and Kuntz wrote: “Women’s lib may make whatever they wish from the foregoing.”


GR9iGsAW0AAmAOw.jpeg

The intent is clear. The female is a realm of chaos and evil, so of course they made their chaotic evil dragon a queen.

Yes, Gygax and Kuntz are making a game, but it is a game whose co-creator explicitly wrote into the rules that feminine power—perhaps even female equality—is by nature evil. There is little room for any other interpretation.

The so-called defenders of Gygax may now say that he was a man of his time, he didn’t know better, or some such. If only someone had told him women were people too in 1975! Well, Gygax was criticized for this fact of D&D at the time. And he left us his response.

Writing in EUROPA, a European fanzine, Gygax said:“I have been accused of being a nasty old sexist-male-Chauvinist-pig, for the wording in D&D isn’t what it should be. There should be more emphasis on the female role, more non-gendered names, and so forth."

GR9iyo3XwAAQCtk.jpeg


"I thought perhaps these folks were right and considered adding women in the ‘Raping and Pillaging[’] section, in the ‘Whores and Tavern Wenches’ chapter, the special magical part dealing with ‘Hags and Crones’...and thought perhaps of adding an appendix on ‘Medieval Harems, Slave Girls, and Going Viking’. Damn right I am sexist. It doesn’t matter to me if women get paid as much as men, get jobs traditionally male, and shower in the men’s locker room."

"They can jolly well stay away from wargaming in droves for all I care. I’ve seen many a good wargame and wargamer spoiled thanks to the fair sex. I’ll detail that if anyone wishes.”


So just to summarize here, Gygax wrote misogyny into the D&D rules. When this was raised with him as an issue at the time, his response was to offer to put rules on rape and sex slavery into D&D.

The outrage online directed at Peterson and Tondro is not only entirely misplaced and disproportional, and perhaps even dishonest in certain cases...

Part 2: D&D Co-Creator Gary Gygax was Sexist. Talking About it is Key to Preserving his Legacy....it is also directly harming the legacies of Gygax, Arneson, Kuntz and the entire first generation of genius game designers our online army of outraged grognards purport to defend.

How? Let me show you.The D&D player base is getting more diverse in every measurable way, including age, gender, sexual orientation, and race. To cite a few statistics, 81% of D&D players are Millenials or Gen Z, and 39% are women. This diversity is incredible, and not because the diversity is some blessed goal unto itself. Rather, the increasing diversity of D&D proves the vigor of the TTRPG medium. Like Japanese rap music or Soviet science fiction, the transportation of a medium across cultures, nations, and genders proves that it is an important method for exploring the human condition. And while TTRPGs are a game, they are also clearly an important method for exploring the human condition. The fact the TTRPG fanbase is no longer solely middle-aged Midwestern cis men of middle European descent...

...the fact that non-binary blerds and Indigenous trans women and fat Polish-American geeks like me and people from every bed of the human vegetable garden ...

find meaning in a game created by two white guys from the Midwest is proof that Gygax and Arneson were geniuses who heaved human civilization forward, even if only by a few feet.

So, as a community, how do we deal with the ugly prejudices of our hobby’s co-creator who also baked them into the game we love? We could pretend there is no problem at all, and say that anyone who mentions the problem is a liar. There is no misogyny to see. There is no **** and there is no stink, and anyone who says there is naughty word on your sneakers is lying and is just trying to embarrass you.

I wonder how that will go? Will all these new D&D fans decide that maybe D&D isn’t for them? They know the stink of misogyny, just like they know **** when they smell it. To say it isn’t there is an insult to their intelligence. If they left the hobby over this, it would leave our community smaller, poorer, and suggest that the great work of Gygax, Arneson, Kuntz, and the other early luminaries on D&D was perhaps not so great after all…

We could take the route of Disney and Song of the South. Wizards could remove all the PDFs of early D&D from DriveThruRPG. They could refuse to ever reprint this material again. Hide it. Bury it. Erase it all with copyright law and lawyers. Yet no matter how deeply you bury the past, it always tends to come back up to the surface again. Heck, there are whole podcast series about that. And what will all these new D&D fans think when they realize that a corporation tried to hide its own mistakes from them?

Again, maybe they decide D&D isn’t the game for them. Or maybe when someone tells you there is **** on your shoe, you say thanks, clean it off, and move on.

We honor the old books, but when they tell a reader they are a lesser human being, we should acknowledge that is not the D&D of 2024. Something like...

“Hey reader, we see you in all your wondrous multiplicity of possibility, and if we were publishing this today, it wouldn’t contain messages and themes telling some of you that you are less than others. So we just want to warn you. That stuff’s in there.”

Y’know, something like that legacy content warning they put on all those old PDFs on DriveThruRPG. And when we see something bigoted in old D&D, we talk about it. It lets the new, broad, and deep tribe of D&D know that we do not want bigotry in D&D today. Talking about it welcomes the entire human family into the hobby.To do anything less is to damn D&D to darkness. It hobbles its growth, gates its community, denies the world the joy of the game, and denies its creators their due. D&D’s creators were visionary game designers. They were also people, and people are kinda ****** up. So a necessary step in making D&D the sort of cultural pillar that it deserves to be is to name its bigotries and prejudices when you see them. Failure to do so hurts the game by shrinking our community and therefore shrinking the legacy of its creators.

Appendix 1: Yeah, I know Chaos isn’t the same as Evil in OD&D.

But I would also point out as nerdily as possible that on pg. 9 of Book 1 of OD&D, under “Character Alignment, Including Various Monsters and Creatures,” Evil High Priests are included under the “Chaos” heading, along with the undead. So I would put to you that Gygax did see a relationship between Evil and Chaos at the time.

GR9lAHtaQAANLyb.jpeg




Look, folks, we know how a conversation like this goes on the internet. Because, internet. Read the rules you agreed to before replying. The banhammer will be used on those who don't do what they agreed to.
 

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ECMO3

Hero
View attachment 371502

The recent book The Making of Original Dungeons & Dragons 1970-1977 talks about the early years of D&D. In the book, authors Jon Peterson and Jason Tondro talk about the way the game, and its writers, approached certain issues. Not surprisingly, this revelation received aggressive "pushback" on social media because, well, that sort of thing does--in fact, one designer who worked with Gygax at the time labelled it "slanderous".

D&D historian Ben Riggs--author of Slaying the Dragon--delved into the facts. Note that the below was posted on Twitter, in that format, not as an article.

D&D Co-Creator Gary Gygax was Sexist. Talking About it is Key to Preserving his Legacy.

The internet has been rending its clothes and gnashing its teeth over the introduction to an instant classic of TTRPG history, The Making of Original D&D 1970-1977. Published by Wizards of the Coast, it details the earliest days of D&D’s creation using amazing primary source materials.

Why then has the response been outrage from various corners of the internet? Well authors Jon Peterson and Jason Tondro mention that early D&D made light of slavery, disparaged women, and gave Hindu deities hit points. They also repeated Wizard’s disclaimer for legacy content which states:"These depictions were wrong then and are wrong today. This content is presented as it was originally created, because to do otherwise would be the same as claiming these prejudices never existed."

In response to this, an army of grognards swarmed social media to bite their shields and bellow. Early D&D author Rob Kuntz described Peterson and Tondro’s work as “slanderous.” On his Castle Oldskull blog, Kent David Kelly called it “disparagement.” These critics are accusing Peterson and Tondro of dishonesty. Lying, not to put too fine a point on it.So, are they lying? Are they making stuff up about Gary Gygax and early D&D?

Well, let's look at a specific example of what Peterson and Tondro describe as “misogyny “ from 1975's Greyhawk. Greyhawk was the first supplement ever produced for D&D. Written by Gary Gygax and Rob Kuntz, the same Rob Kuntz who claimed slander above, it was a crucial text in the history of the game. For example, it debuted the thief character class. It also gave the game new dragons, among them the King of Lawful Dragons and the Queen of Chaotic Dragons. The male dragon is good, and female dragon is evil. (See Appendix 1 below for more.)

It is a repetition of the old trope that male power is inherently good, and female power is inherently evil. (Consider the connotations of the words witch and wizard, with witches being evil by definition, for another example.)

Now so-called defenders of Gygax and Kuntz will say that my reading of the above text makes me a fool who wouldn’t know dragon’s breath from a virtue signal. I am ruining D&D with my woke wokeness. Gygax and Kuntz were just building a fun game, and decades later, Peterson and Tondro come along to crap on their work by screeching about misogyny.

(I would also point out that as we are all white men of a certain age talking about misogyny, the worst we can expect is to be flamed online. Women often doing the same thing get rape or death threats.)

Critics of their work would say that Peterson and Tondro are reading politics into D&D. Except that when we return to the Greyhawk text, we see that it was actually Gygax and Kuntz who put “politics” into D&D.

The text itself comments on the fact that the lawful dragon is male, and the chaotic one is female. Gygax and Kuntz wrote: “Women’s lib may make whatever they wish from the foregoing.”


The intent is clear. The female is a realm of chaos and evil, so of course they made their chaotic evil dragon a queen.

Yes, Gygax and Kuntz are making a game, but it is a game whose co-creator explicitly wrote into the rules that feminine power—perhaps even female equality—is by nature evil. There is little room for any other interpretation.

The so-called defenders of Gygax may now say that he was a man of his time, he didn’t know better, or some such. If only someone had told him women were people too in 1975! Well, Gygax was criticized for this fact of D&D at the time. And he left us his response.

Writing in EUROPA, a European fanzine, Gygax said:“I have been accused of being a nasty old sexist-male-Chauvinist-pig, for the wording in D&D isn’t what it should be. There should be more emphasis on the female role, more non-gendered names, and so forth."

View attachment 371500

"I thought perhaps these folks were right and considered adding women in the ‘Raping and Pillaging[’] section, in the ‘Whores and Tavern Wenches’ chapter, the special magical part dealing with ‘Hags and Crones’...and thought perhaps of adding an appendix on ‘Medieval Harems, Slave Girls, and Going Viking’. Damn right I am sexist. It doesn’t matter to me if women get paid as much as men, get jobs traditionally male, and shower in the men’s locker room."

"They can jolly well stay away from wargaming in droves for all I care. I’ve seen many a good wargame and wargamer spoiled thanks to the fair sex. I’ll detail that if anyone wishes.”


So just to summarize here, Gygax wrote misogyny into the D&D rules. When this was raised with him as an issue at the time, his response was to offer to put rules on rape and sex slavery into D&D.

The outrage online directed at Peterson and Tondro is not only entirely misplaced and disproportional, and perhaps even dishonest in certain cases...

Part 2: D&D Co-Creator Gary Gygax was Sexist. Talking About it is Key to Preserving his Legacy....it is also directly harming the legacies of Gygax, Arneson, Kuntz and the entire first generation of genius game designers our online army of outraged grognards purport to defend.

How? Let me show you.The D&D player base is getting more diverse in every measurable way, including age, gender, sexual orientation, and race. To cite a few statistics, 81% of D&D players are Millenials or Gen Z, and 39% are women. This diversity is incredible, and not because the diversity is some blessed goal unto itself. Rather, the increasing diversity of D&D proves the vigor of the TTRPG medium. Like Japanese rap music or Soviet science fiction, the transportation of a medium across cultures, nations, and genders proves that it is an important method for exploring the human condition. And while TTRPGs are a game, they are also clearly an important method for exploring the human condition. The fact the TTRPG fanbase is no longer solely middle-aged Midwestern cis men of middle European descent...

...the fact that non-binary blerds and Indigenous trans women and fat Polish-American geeks like me and people from every bed of the human vegetable garden ...

find meaning in a game created by two white guys from the Midwest is proof that Gygax and Arneson were geniuses who heaved human civilization forward, even if only by a few feet.

So, as a community, how do we deal with the ugly prejudices of our hobby’s co-creator who also baked them into the game we love? We could pretend there is no problem at all, and say that anyone who mentions the problem is a liar. There is no misogyny to see. There is no **** and there is no stink, and anyone who says there is naughty word on your sneakers is lying and is just trying to embarrass you.

I wonder how that will go? Will all these new D&D fans decide that maybe D&D isn’t for them? They know the stink of misogyny, just like they know **** when they smell it. To say it isn’t there is an insult to their intelligence. If they left the hobby over this, it would leave our community smaller, poorer, and suggest that the great work of Gygax, Arneson, Kuntz, and the other early luminaries on D&D was perhaps not so great after all…

We could take the route of Disney and Song of the South. Wizards could remove all the PDFs of early D&D from DriveThruRPG. They could refuse to ever reprint this material again. Hide it. Bury it. Erase it all with copyright law and lawyers. Yet no matter how deeply you bury the past, it always tends to come back up to the surface again. Heck, there are whole podcast series about that. And what will all these new D&D fans think when they realize that a corporation tried to hide its own mistakes from them?

Again, maybe they decide D&D isn’t the game for them. Or maybe when someone tells you there is **** on your shoe, you say thanks, clean it off, and move on.

We honor the old books, but when they tell a reader they are a lesser human being, we should acknowledge that is not the D&D of 2024. Something like...

“Hey reader, we see you in all your wondrous multiplicity of possibility, and if we were publishing this today, it wouldn’t contain messages and themes telling some of you that you are less than others. So we just want to warn you. That stuff’s in there.”

Y’know, something like that legacy content warning they put on all those old PDFs on DriveThruRPG. And when we see something bigoted in old D&D, we talk about it. It lets the new, broad, and deep tribe of D&D know that we do not want bigotry in D&D today. Talking about it welcomes the entire human family into the hobby.To do anything less is to damn D&D to darkness. It hobbles its growth, gates its community, denies the world the joy of the game, and denies its creators their due. D&D’s creators were visionary game designers. They were also people, and people are kinda ****** up. So a necessary step in making D&D the sort of cultural pillar that it deserves to be is to name its bigotries and prejudices when you see them. Failure to do so hurts the game by shrinking our community and therefore shrinking the legacy of its creators.

Appendix 1: Yeah, I know Chaos isn’t the same as Evil in OD&D.

But I would also point out as nerdily as possible that on pg. 9 of Book 1 of OD&D, under “Character Alignment, Including Various Monsters and Creatures,” Evil High Priests are included under the “Chaos” heading, along with the undead. So I would put to you that Gygax did see a relationship between Evil and Chaos at the time.





Look, folks, we know how a conversation like this goes on the internet. Because, internet. Read the rules you agreed to before replying. The banhammer will be used on those who don't do what they agreed to.


It is what it is. People are flawed, Gygax was no different. As WOTC says it was wrong then and it is wrong now .... the only difference is there is more concern about it now and less accepted.

50 years from now I am sure it will be the same with some of the heroes we have today being redefined by their "bad" proclivities that are just as wrong now as they will be in 2074 but also more widely accepted now than they will be then.
 

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Chaosmancer

Legend
That's exactly why I often encourage players to have two characters on the go: if one dies or becomes unplayable for a while, you've still got the other one.

The conflict of interest comes if the captured-character's player is having input to what the rest of the party does. Having their own scene (kept secret from the other players, of course) is fine.

But as noted above, it does solve the "have to sit out all night" problem; and in a moderate-lethality game where characters aren't guaranteed survival (particularly at low level) this can be a useful feature.

I get that a second character is a "solution" but it is also a deep problem, because you can't role-play two characters at once, so you have the main group who interacts with each other.. and then these silent shadow characters who only do anything when one of the main cast is gone. It has very poor at-the-table functionality for a group that has a lot of inter-character interactions.

And, no, having input into what the rest of the party does isn't a conflict of interest. Heck, it isn't even a thing we worry about. We've had party members split off in social scenes all the time, interact without the rest of the party being there all the time, and the worst that happens is a player reminding another player about something they forgot. Which is FINE.

Maybe. Or maybe not.

Keep in mind that in the type of games I run (and prefer) the adventuring party aren't the only adventurers out there. They have friends and associates elsewhere (often these are PCs of the same or different players), and when a group fails to return from the field some associates might start wondering why, and take measures to scry them or otherwise determine their fate.

Which means, if a party ends up stuck in prison there might be another adventure not far down the road, for different characters, where the main mission is to get 'em out before they die or get eaten or are sacrificed or whatever.

Assuming, of course, the missing characters are liked-by-others enough for people to care. :)

I can see playing that sort of game, but at that point it feels bizarre to me. Nothing wrong with what your group likes, but it feels like if in the Hobbit they had an entire mini novel of how the dwarves cousins came to rescue them from the elves or the goblin king instead of them rescuing themselves. I don't understand making an entire adventure, with entirely different characters who didn't have stats before (I know your game they likely do, but we don't run multiple characters) for the sole purpose of rescuing the main cast.... instead of just making an adventure where the main cast can rescue themselves.

It kills that adventure, sure, but does not kill the overall campaign.

This is only true if the group is unimportant to the campaign, which is not an assumption we share.

It's supposed to suck, to a point, as it's clearly a "loss" condition.

My baseline assumption is that you'll already have other PCs in the setting somewhere and-or will be willing to roll one up if it seems your current character is stuck where it is for the long term or is dead without hope of revival for a while.

The other option - and I've done this many a time when it's known to all what became of the player's character(s) - is to hand over an adventuring NPC (there's almost always at least one in any party) to the player to run for the short term.

I did that, played a rando NPC for an adventure... it was boring as heck. I mostly got to watch the rest of the party disrespect and mock my character's corpse. And nothing that character did mattered, I don't even know if the DM bothered to remember that character's name because they were never important again.

And while you say that being stuck with nothing to do is supposed to suck, I would counter with losing sucks enough. You don't need to ALSO make the aftermath of losing suck.

Sometimes the game takes away or denies agency as either a direct effect or a side effect of in-game events. This has to be accepted by all; and being a "Damsel in Distress" with hopes of being rescued is far preferable to some other possible outcomes.

No, actually it really isn't preferable. You are basically being told that you are required to waste some of your game time sitting around, being a burden on your team, with no way to do anything at all to affect the outcome. If I sit down to DnD and I would be better spending my time watching youtube videos on my phone, then something has gone wrong.

The world is out to get the PCs (or it will be after they've pissed off enough of it), and if they're that trusting they're wide open to betrayal. All kinds of drama-space and intrigue possibilities to mine there.

There is a difference between not trusting an NPC and not trusting a Player Character. Everyone knows the result of the Player Character trying to join the party, unless you are one of those groups that would kill a new PC and force a player to roll up a new one on their first session, because they were "too suspicious". It ends up being a waste of everyone's time and straining the suspension of disbelief. You have no reason in character to treat this person differently, but you absolutely know they are the new member of the party.

A character's background is just that: background. It's there to, if the players wants/needs such, help inform roleplay and give the player some talking points. Once in a while a background might become relevant in the field e.g. a PC who was an armourer before adventuring can fix armour far better than the average Joe, but that's it.

Sorry, you probably don't mean it this way, but that comes across as something of an "it's all about me" take. It isn't; and there's nothing saying that between retirement (a player can retire a character at any time between adventures, it's allowed), death, or other in-game events the character you're playing right now will still be around in a week or a month or a year. The party, however, almost certainly will be; and so that's at whom I aim the plot.

I don't know how to explain it to you. Because you don't see the characters as mattering. But at the same time, essentially being told consistently "you don't matter, your goals don't matter, your opinions don't matter, your past doesn't matter, your future doesn't matter..." well why the heck should I care about that experience? If I don't matter, then I can just leave and do something else. I know that sounds selfish, I get that it sounds selfish, but if I could bring a rollodex and play a different character every session and it doesn't matter... then why am I bothering? Why should I bother learning anything about the NPCs, the world, the plot, the villains? The other characters don't matter, the NPCs don't matter, the treasure doesn't matter... I may as well play an idle game and watch the numbers go up. Or grab a board game and have the blue meeple collect eight gem tokens. I can be challenged and stimulated with both of those, and I won't have put effort into considering a character, bringing them to life, only to be consistently told I am wasting my time by doing so.

First off, player turnover is (one hopes!) far less common than character turnover. Players who care about the story beyond just how it affects their own character(s) are going to keep coming back, rolling up new characters as and when needed in order to keep playing. It's the attitude of "my character is all that matters to me" that directly causes the problems you cite here.

But the two are linked. You can't care about a villain if the villain is just a generic faceless bad guy. Do you have particularly strong feelings about defeating "The Hell Knight" a black-armored knight that has a sword and kills people who enter the dungeon? I've defeated and seen defeated over a dozen faceless enemies with no backstory or connection to a larger world. I can throw him in the pile and forget him just as fast as I've forgotten the others.

You keep saying that all the matters is the Party, the Team... but can you even name a team in fiction whose members weren't important to the continuation of the team? Would the Fellowship of the Ring be equally impactful if Legolas and Gimli were just two random human hunters they picked up in the forest? Would the A-team function if the entire cast had no backstory and barely talked to each other? Even in massive ensemble shows like the Expendables... there are still deep ties to the character's pasts, they know each other, they interact, they have backstories, they matter.

The very fact that my character's survival is guaranteeable like that is itself a big turnoff. Where's the life-and-death stakes? Where's the risk? Where's the relief in realizing I/we survived another battle or another mission where others maybe did not?

And (to haul this just a little closer back to the topic) I suspect Gygax thought the same. D&D is at its heart a war game; and in wars, people die.

Yes, in war people die, and maybe that is how Gary thought of the game. But look at the inspirational material. How many protagonists died in Narnia? In the Fellowship of the Ring we only lose ONE character permanently, and it is not long after the fellowship is formed. Conan is a single protagonist who doesn't die, and I believe most of him companions don't die either.

DnD was conceived as a wargame, but it evolved as a story-telling game. And the single most important part of storytelling, is characters.
 


Minion X

Explorer
TSR drew a number of its ideas about monsters in the mid-late 1970s from the Lehners' Fantastic Bestiary. It identifies Tiamat (on page 189) as a "serpent-monster of chaos." Not gendered, and possibly not a direct inspiration for the account in 1975 Greyhawk, but still might be a factor in how the name got attached to a chaotic monster.
It's good to see someone consider exactly where Gygax might have picked up the name Tiamat and the idea of a dragon queen instead of just pointing to modern Wikipedia articles.
 

Hussar

Legend
It's good to see someone consider exactly where Gygax might have picked up the name Tiamat and the idea of a dragon queen instead of just pointing to modern Wikipedia articles.

But for the purposes of this thread, it’s not terribly relevant since the quote under consideration predates choosing Tiamat as a name by a couple of years.

IOW, the whole “where does the name come from” is at best a sidebar. At worst it’s a rather deliberate attempt to derail the conversation.
 

Mannahnin

Scion of Murgen (He/Him)
It is what it is. People are flawed, Gygax was no different. As WOTC says it was wrong then and it is wrong now .... the only difference is there is more concern about it now and less accepted.

50 years from now I am sure it will be the same with some of the heroes we have today being redefined by their "bad" proclivities that are just as wrong now as they will be in 2074 but also more widely accepted now than they will be then.
And we still don't define Gary by his worst aspects. We're just being more honest about them, and trying to contextualize the good and bad.

He's still celebrated at GaryCon and other places like Founders and Legends. The Troll Lords just re-released some of his newer work again and people are buying.

The disclaimers about content he (edit: and others) wrote are found in a giant 600 page book celebrating his work, they amount to a few paragraphs, and didn't even name him.

This thread exists because Rob Kuntz and folk like him took extremely exaggerated umbrage to those few paragraphs and attacked the historians who wrote them and accused them of lying. So Ben Riggs dug deeper into the historical record to show more proof that the writers of the book weren't lying.
 
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Azzy

ᚳᚣᚾᛖᚹᚢᛚᚠ
And we still don't define Gary by his worst aspects. We're just being more honest about them, and trying to contextualize the good and bad.

He's still celebrated at GaryCon and other places like Founders and Legends. The Troll Lords just re-released some of his newer work again and people are buying.

The disclaimers about content he (edit: and others) wrote are found in a giant 600 page book celebrating his work, they amount to a few paragraphs, and didn't even name him.

This thread exists because Rob Kuntz and folk like him took extremely exaggerated umbrage to those few paragraphs and attacked the historians who wrote them and accused them of lying. So Ben Riggs dug deeper into the historical record to show more proof that the writers of the book weren't lying.
It's kinda sad that this needs to be reiterated every 5 pages or so.
 


Minion X

Explorer
But for the purposes of this thread, it’s not terribly relevant since the quote under consideration predates choosing Tiamat as a name by a couple of years.
You are correct that I should have said the "idea of Tiamat" and not just the name. The concept is still the same even if he hadn't picked a specific name yet. Something like Echidna would have worked fine too.
 

Hussar

Legend
You are correct that I should have said the "idea of Tiamat" and not just the name. The concept is still the same even if he hadn't picked a specific name yet. Something like Echidna would have worked fine too.

Again. Still. Not. Relevant.

The point is the “suck it feminists” quote. What comes before that quote is not really all that important to the discussion about why we would have a two or three line disclaimer in the forward of a six hundred page book.
 

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