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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Imaro" data-source="post: 5941918" data-attributes="member: 48965">At low levels (1-3), which I have reiterated numerous times within the thread that I am speaking about, they very much are a threat.    1. Uhm, that picture doesn't objectively rebutt anything.2. This is tangental and pendantic at best to the point. have I even claimed it was specifically one attack? Or have I said one-shotting as in one attack roll?? I honestly don't remember.3. Level 9 is not low level.  First, this is high level which I have stated before in every edition amounts to super-heroic fantasy... Yet, and this is key... in 3.x he can still roll low enough, damage wise that he may not kill the ogre with one attack roll (I'll try to carefully word this now so as to avoid the distracting pendantic arguments on verbiage.)... A minion on the other hand will always be killed with one successful attack roll.  Did I ever claim all orcs were minions? Nope, I claimed some level 4 Orcs were miniions... which they are. See this is what I mean about stating an argument I didn't make and then attributing it to me... don't. as to the name... in 4e that fluff/fiction doesn't mean anything so why are you now trying to use it in some way to strengthen your own categorization of the monsters?  Again level 9 is not low level. They can one-shot, but are not guaranteed, upon a successful attack, of one-shotting like they are in 4e with minions. There's a different feel there.    Ok, cool... does the fact that you can houserule it change the fact that it is the official rule of the game and adds to a super-heroic feel? If not, I'm uncertain as to why you're telling me this? Oh, I get it again... I'm attacking 4e so you're trying to help me fix my problems... only that's not what I'm doing and I'm not trying to "fix" anything.   I mean the action of bringing your ability to stay in the fight up to the max it can be in an encounter by taking a 5 minute rest.    Then I guess I'm not trying to present your PoV to others. The thing I'm wondering is if you can see why the mechanics of 4e can make some (let me clarify that in saying "some" I am not referenceing you) people feel like the game is drifting into the realm, of super heroics. If you're not even willing to entertain the fact that some people could honestly (and without any malice toward the game) feel that way, well then we can agree to disagree at this point because this discussion won't go anywhere prodiuctive.    And yet until 4e it was possible to have a gritty low-level game, for those who wanted it. So you can choose to ignore D&D but for some/many it worked fine for that until recently.       So you're saying for the game to work correctly I need to purchase more books... and disregard the books I initially bought. That sucks.  To answer your question I was, until recently, using any monster in the online Adventure Tools... are they updated to the new specs?  If not I don't see why I would have to go out and buy more books to get the game to the corrected point for combats.</blockquote>

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