D&D General D&D magic inspired by...

[Reynard]

Let's imagine that Gygax and Co. were heavily inspired by someone other than Vance for the creation of the D&D magic system. Who might it have been? And what would that have looked like in OD&D and how might it have evolved all the way to 5E?

If they had stuck with Howard's weird hyborean age sorcerers, I think there would have been a lot more alchemy, rituals and summoning. I think it would have been dangerous and costly and essentially evil, mostly a tool of the enemy. Over time, of course, the worst parts would have been decreased or eliminated and magic would become more and more a PC thing.

Without Vancian spells as a foundation, I think different magic using classes would have been more thematic and unique: actual prayers and blessings for clerics, for example.

What do you think?

 

[deganawida]

I personally would have loved for fantasy TTRPGs to have been inspired by something other than Vance (NOTE: Not making a judgment call on Vance's writings or Jack Vance himself). D&D's magic system from the beginning had nothing to do with historical magical practices or beliefs. A game as you describe with rituals, summoning, alchemy, prayers, with additions of hexes, charms, enchantments, chants, and more would have been far more fantastical to me. The D&D magic user is an artillery piece; the historical magic user was someone who sought understanding or control, and interceded with the divine or spiritual in some fashion.

Now, we have games out there where magic is inspired by Tolkien more than Vance. But what if it was inspired more by Lloyd Alexander? Most magic would be wrapped up in things or beings, rather than in spells and blasts. Classical magical items like crystal balls and harps, as well as oracular pigs, would be more important. Songs and speeches could be magical, influencing people in ways. Magic could be built to serve the needs of the setting, invested in a large pot or a majestic deer, and you could tie the treasure-seeking of D&D with these magical objects.

 

[Mad_Jack]

There's an Irish legend involving the hero Fionn mac Cumhaill - his mentor at the time, the poet Finnegas, was prophesied to catch the Salmon of Knowledge and thus "nothing would be unknown to him", but when Finnegas caught the fish he told Fionn to cook it for him. While cooking it, Fionn accidentally burned his thumb and reflexively put it in his mouth, thus gaining all the fish's wisdom. Afterward, he could recall any fact by putting his thumb in his mouth.

It'd be awesome to learn a new spell by having to finish a task in some clever way like catching a fish or beating an owl at a riddle contest.

 

[Blue Orange]

I think Gygax specifically picked Vance because it didn't match any real-world magic system.

For Howard-like magic, you could look at the various Conan games that have been made over the years. Many of them are as you describe.

Chaosium's Stormbringer has a magic system based around bound demons that's supposed to be more true to the Elric series.

This is a little obscure, but Liber Ka for Nephilim was supposed to be based on actual Western ceremonial magic, and you got bonuses for incorporating correspondences, doing things on the right day, etc. You were mostly restricted to stuff that could plausibly happen naturally, similar to Mage: the Ascension's coincidental magic. It's available for purchase on DrivethruRPG.

A more complete table of correspondences was in the even-more-obscure Fantasy Wargaming by Bruce Galloway. That's almost impossible to get a copy of, but someone (possibly Galloway himself, or one of his associates, from the email address?) put a very similar-looking table up on a BBS and it is on the textfiles.org server archiving old 1980s BBS content. As Fantasy Wargaming is out of print, I believe this would be fair use:

https://textfiles.vistech.net/rpg/highmagk.txt

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Re-reading the Wizard of Earthsea currently, and its magic system would have been a really interesting foundation, with its reliance on true names as a way to gate magical power.

 

[Voadam]

Comic book Dr. Strange. At will blasts, some astral projection, and make pacts to invoke magical beings with exclamation points for other powers. Crimson Bands of Cyttorak! Illusions of Iconn!

We might have gotten the warlock earlier.

Plenty of magic items as well like the levitation cloak and the Eye of Agamotto.

 

[James Gasik]

I think Gygax specifically picked Vance because it didn't match any real-world magic system.

For Howard-like magic, you could look at the various Conan games that have been made over the years. Many of them are as you describe.

Chaosium's Stormbringer has a magic system based around bound demons that's supposed to be more true to the Elric series.

This is a little obscure, but Liber Ka for Nephilim was supposed to be based on actual Western ceremonial magic, and you got bonuses for incorporating correspondences, doing things on the right day, etc. You were mostly restricted to stuff that could plausibly happen naturally, similar to Mage: the Ascension's coincidental magic. It's available for purchase on DrivethruRPG.

A more complete table of correspondences was in the even-more-obscure Fantasy Wargaming by Bruce Galloway. That's almost impossible to get a copy of, but someone (possibly Galloway himself, or one of his associates, from the email address?) put a very similar-looking table up on a BBS and it is on the textfiles.org server archiving old 1980s BBS content. As Fantasy Wargaming is out of print, I believe this would be fair use:

https://textfiles.vistech.net/rpg/highmagk.txt

Holy cats, someone else who has read Nephilim! Whenever I bring up the game, most people look at me like I'm insane!

 

[James Gasik]

It's hard to say what would have inspired them, I'm not sure how many other fantasy authors had thought-out magic systems in the 70's...LeGuin, maybe (I was going to say Zelazny, but Madwand and the Merlin books didn't come out until the 80's, and Merlin is basically a Neo-Vancian Wizard anyways)? Usually magic just did whatever it was narratively supposed to do.

That having been said, when I was new to the game, I really digged Ultima 4's magic system, and wished D&D magic worked more like that.

EDIT: Lord Darcy, maybe?

 

[Steampunkette]

It probably would've defaulted to Elementalists with not much outside of that for Arcane magic. And divine magic, if it existed separate from Arcane, probably would've had a little "Holy" sprinkled onto it.

 

[James Gasik]

Honestly, when I actually sat down to read The Dying Earth, what struck me was that there really wasn't a detailed magic system. Just the "you forget the spell after you cast it". So I doubt that D&D could have drawn inspiration from other magic systems, because it's creators were looking for a way to balance magic, and making spells "bullets in a magic gun" was a simple way to do it.

The concept of "MP" (spell points) didn't appear until later, sadly. But I'm willing to bet nobody was looking for "laws" to limit magic or narrative consequences for using it; they were making a game, and they needed magic to be a resource, like food or ammunition, something they could possibly grok from board/wargames (not sure which ones, even The Campaign for North Africa didn't come out until '78).

Which is why we're still using "spell bullets" to this day. It's easier to balance than anything else; even spell points require an additional rule from spamming "firaga" every round until you're out of magic.

That having been said, I'd love to see some other magic system employed (I'm also a big fan of Earthdawn's "at will" spells that you can only have a few of ready to cast at a time, and big spells requiring more than one turn to cast, but I can't say that would be more balanced), but it's hard to argue that you should fix something that more or less works.

 

[Cadence]

The one I'm musing is some splice of Dying Earth 1-3 (Vance), Lord Darcy (Randall Garrett), Garrett Files (Glen Cook), and the weaker casters of Dread Empire (Glen Cook).

Very limited number of memorized spells, but many rituals and cantrips (both that have some fatigue tied to them). Things like continual flame and arcane lock degrade over time. No teleportation.

 

[Reynard]

It probably would've defaulted to Elementalists with not much outside of that for Arcane magic. And divine magic, if it existed separate from Arcane, probably would've had a little "Holy" sprinkled onto it.

Why do you say this? Is there a strong vein of elementalism in an Aapendix N source?

 

[Steampunkette]

Why do you say this? Is there a strong vein of elementalism in an Aapendix N source?

No. But there's a long, strong, historical trend toward magic being "The Four Elements" in nearly every piece of media prior to D&D's expansion into things like Force and the like.

Heck. Even in 5e there's a continued drive to have Acid be the "Earth Element" damage type and Ice be the "Water Element" damage type rather than just having them do bludgeoning, slashing, or piercing based on their specific use. Similarly: Lightning is not "Air Damage". Lightning is Electrons. It's it's own thing, dang it!

But -fire- exists as an elemental damage type so EVERY ELEMENT HAS TO HAVE ONE.

I wanna deal Aluminum damage to the people who keep pushing that ridiculous angle all the time forever.

 

[Bernese]

it would be cool if it was inspired by lovecraft. that would be interesting

 

[Fanaelialae]

This would be an anachronism, but Sanderson.

Not necessarily the specific systems from the Cosmere, but rather magic systems that have strong thematics and well thought out limits. I would say a decent example of a system like this can be found in Worlds Without Number.

 

[Blue Orange]

No. But there's a long, strong, historical trend toward magic being "The Four Elements" in nearly every piece of media prior to D&D's expansion into things like Force and the like.

Heck. Even in 5e there's a continued drive to have Acid be the "Earth Element" damage type and Ice be the "Water Element" damage type rather than just having them do bludgeoning, slashing, or piercing based on their specific use. Similarly: Lightning is not "Air Damage". Lightning is Electrons. It's it's own thing, dang it!

But -fire- exists as an elemental damage type so EVERY ELEMENT HAS TO HAVE ONE.

I wanna deal Aluminum damage to the people who keep pushing that ridiculous angle all the time forever.

The problem with the periodic table elements is there's over 100 of them. Even if you eliminate all the radioactive ones that disappear in under a second you still have too many. Of course, lots of them are metals with properties no preindustrial person could tell apart (they had a hard time even separating most of the rare earths), but even so you still have more visibly distinct elements than most people can remember.

4 elements are easy to remember, and you get all kinds of poetic associations with the sea, the ground, the sky, and fire. You've even got the antagonism between fire and water. Even the Japanese and Indians just add on void or spirit. Go over to China and you'll drop air and get wood and metal--but you're still only at 5. ('Cause 4 sounds like death, I'll bet.)

I agree: also, a lot of the damage electricity does to you is from burns, so technically it should do fire damage plus mind effects from messing with your nervous system. I think ice doesn't do bludgeoning, etc. because it lets them separate the elemental spells used by casters from the weapons used by martials, so it's a sort of class-balancing act as well--you can have monsters that are easier to damage by casters or martials by turning that 'dial', so to speak.

And, of course, there's inertia. What are the elemental types in Final Fantasy 15? Fire, Ice, and Lightning. What spells did damage by level to multiple targets in 1st ed D&D? Fireball, Cone of Cold, and Lightning Bolt. 50 years and 6000 miles and some things don't change.

 

[James Gasik]

No. But there's a long, strong, historical trend toward magic being "The Four Elements" in nearly every piece of media prior to D&D's expansion into things like Force and the like.

Heck. Even in 5e there's a continued drive to have Acid be the "Earth Element" damage type and Ice be the "Water Element" damage type rather than just having them do bludgeoning, slashing, or piercing based on their specific use. Similarly: Lightning is not "Air Damage". Lightning is Electrons. It's it's own thing, dang it!

But -fire- exists as an elemental damage type so EVERY ELEMENT HAS TO HAVE ONE.

I wanna deal Aluminum damage to the people who keep pushing that ridiculous angle all the time forever.

I think this started in 3e, actually. Though it led to some odd things like Blue Dragons having the Earth subtype because negative electrons come from the sky, and positive ones come from the ground...

 

[Voadam]

Thieves World.

A shared fiction world where the authors came together and agreed on some setting elements including how magic worked and then with story two on every author broke those rules and added their own bits in for their own story.

It fits with D&D always coming up with different new things.

 

[Blue Orange]

I think this started in 3e, actually. Though it led to some odd things like Blue Dragons having the Earth subtype because negative electrons come from the sky, and positive ones come from the ground...

Right. It's the problem of making the columns line up. The first bunch of associations match up nicely and the rest...just kind of get shoehorned in. You saw this with medieval tables of correspondences. "Sun...gold...yellow! Moon...silver...white! That was easy! All right, what about the other planets? Mars...iron...red, because rust and the planet's red! Venus...copper...green, because patina and...uh...leaves are pretty! Saturn...lead...black, because it's the darkest planet! Whew! Jupiter...tin...blue...Jupiter was the god of the sky, right? Mercury...mercury...okay, we need a color. Uh, what do we have left? Orange? Purple?"

Now they get to the dragons. "Red breathes fire, so fire! Green breathes gas, so air! White breathes cold, so cold! Black breathes acid, so...uh...water, 'cause acid is liquid? Blue breathes lightning, so air...but wait, nobody's earth. Uh, do we want the green one to be earth...that doesn't make any sense, air is a gas. Or maybe the black one...nah, acid is a liquid. We're shipping in two days? OK, blue is earth! It lives in the desert! That's my story, and I'm sticking to it! Now did we figure out what the devourer looks like since DiTerlizzi quit? OK. What's our favored class for gnolls? Dang, they took sorcerer, thief, fighter, and barbarian. Wizard's off-brand...How about ranger? Nobody picked that one yet for the other goblinoids, right? Well, I guess they live in the woods..."

 

[James Gasik]

Right. It's the problem of making the columns line up. The first bunch of associations match up nicely and the rest...just kind of get shoehorned in. You saw this with medieval tables of correspondences. "Sun...gold...yellow! Moon...silver...white! That was easy! All right, what about the other planets? Mars...iron...red, because rust and the planet's red! Venus...copper...green, because patina and...uh...leaves are pretty! Saturn...lead...black, because it's the darkest planet! Whew! Jupiter...tin...blue...Jupiter was the god of the sky, right? Mercury...mercury...okay, we need a color. Uh, what do we have left? Orange? Purple?"

Now they get to the dragons. "Red breathes fire, so fire! Green breathes gas, so air! White breathes cold, so cold! Black breathes acid, so...uh...water, 'cause acid is liquid? Blue breathes lightning, so air...but wait, nobody's earth. Uh, do we want the green one to be earth...that doesn't make any sense, air is a gas. Or maybe the black one...nah, acid is a liquid. We're shipping in two days? OK, blue is earth! It lives in the desert! That's my story, and I'm sticking to it! Now did we figure out what the devourer looks like since DiTerlizzi quit? OK. What's our favored class for gnolls? Dang, they took sorcerer, thief, fighter, and barbarian. Wizard's off-brand...How about ranger? Nobody picked that one yet for the other goblinoids, right? Well, I guess they live in the woods..."

Yeah, I mean, that was the first one that came to mind, but some of the other Dragons were kind of messed up too, for example, fire-breathing Gold dragons are....fire! But they are aquatic.

The Bronze Dragon is aquatic so....water! But they breathe lightning. Haha, logic!