D&D Metagame - 148 classes, 608 prestige classes

[Wombat]

How have all these classes and prestige classes affected your games?

Easy. We ignore most of them. PrCs are almost unheard of in our campaigns.

Do you allow material from any (all) books outside the core SRD?

Sure. As a matter of fact, we mainly use 3rd party books. For our current (longest running) campaign we have used Monte's AU (haven't upgraded to AE), so we don't even use the core classes and PrCs.

What have you found challenging to manage?

Mainly answering other groups questions about our games. "What do you mean you're not using paladins?!" Other than that, as GM I have final say on any class allowed into the campaign, and currently that is a list of about 12 classes and about 12 PrCs, including the AU Racial Levels.

Has the sheer volume of available source information affected your buying? Have you capped out, and if so where? Why?

I only buy the books I am interested in. Since WotC went to 3.5 I have only bought 3 of their books (Eberron, Unearthed Arcana and Liber Mortis); of these three I have only ever used material for LM. I buy more 3rd party books, as I find them much more interesting and/or closer to the type of game I wish to play.

Do you find it challenging to balance the class and prestige class combinations your players devise? What combinations (c'mon min/maxers) have proven most abusive?

Nope. Since I have a tight rein on the classes and PrCs available, and some of these have cultural restrictions, there is no challange.

Finally, how has this sheer volume of information changed the meta-game environment? As designers, how do you account for the many varieties and flavors that exist? How has the volume of options available altered your groups game play?

Like I said, the sheer volume hasn't affected our style of play mainly because (1) we don't use that many of the books and (2) our style is more important that the material that the various companies provide to us. We use the game material to more closely reflect the game we want, rather than tailor our game to the material available. That's always been my way as a GM and my current crop of players are very, very happy with this notion, which explains why we've been playing pretty much steady for five years.

 

[Imperialus]

I am very, very seriously considering running my next game as core rules only. Personally, I'd love if WotC put out a "Basic Complete" that had the best 4-5 expansion base classes, the best score of PrCs, the best 100 or so feats, and the cream of the new magic item properties, weapons, etc. Even if it was all reprint, there's a very, very good chance I'd buy it, just to reduce clutter. As it is, I've essentially stopped buying books.

That is a brilliant idea, the only problem is everyone is going to have a different opinion of what the "best" class or feat is. You can bet that as soon as such a book comes out reviewers would be all over it [tounge in cheek] decrying the fact that it didn't have a Hexblade in it while for some strange reason that could only involve sleeping with Satan himself in an attempt to come up with ways to screw over creative gamers they chose to include the horribly broken and most cirtanly un-fun Warmage instead.[/tounge in cheek]

 

[scadgrad]

Game Complexity vs. Game Accessibility
Economic Engine vs. Diminishing Returns
ENWorld posted links to the web of all the classes and prestige classes out there. That is a tremendous amount of "official" material to keep track of, and manage in a game. For a new DM, I can't imagine how challenging it might be to know, understand, and plan for all of these things. In the same vane, for an experienced player or group, this versatility is a welcome change, and a fun new way to find this old game accessible and new.

I'm with you. I tried to make the argument in the "Jumped the Shark" thread that for this reason alone the game is more complex. Nevermind whether or not it offers more options, which it admitedly does. By my way of thinking, More Options=More Rules=More Complex. Like many DMs, I've all but given up on 3.X and moved on to a game that doesn't make my head spin.

How have all these classes and prestige classes affected your games?

Not so much, we don't use PrCs at all now, and in almost every instance when I allowed them in the past that PC became the dominant character in the game which I know annoyed many of the others.

Do you allow material from any (all) books outside the core SRD?

Sure, or at least I did when we were playing pure 3.X. I can't tell you how much time I spent reviewing PrCs and typing up a Yes/No list for the setting. In my current game, I just make spot rulings as needed and we've completely dropped PrCs.

What have you found challenging to manage?

PrCs, Feats, and monster templates can quickly become a timesink for the pressed-for-time DM. I gave up long ago on making NPCs for my 3.X campaign, especially those over 9th level.

Has the sheer volume of available source information affected your buying? Have you capped out, and if so where? Why?

Of course it has. I buy about 1/3rd of what I once did. Since I switched to C&C (albeit C&C w/ a lot of 3.X elements added), I've found that I spend far less on supplements. I felt like I really got burned by the Complete Adventurer since it was so jam-packed w/ PrCs. Anything that is uber crunchy isn't as likely to catch my eye.

Do you find it challenging to balance the class and prestige class combinations your players devise? What combinations (c'mon min/maxers) have proven most abusive?

I don't really subscribe to the Everything Must Be Balanced mantra that many players seem to demand so I can be somewhat tolerant. As long as it's not a situation where the one character just utterly dominates the game, then a little inequity lends more of a sense of verisimilitude to the game. Let's face it, the world isn't balanced in every aspect of our lives.

That being said, I do admit that every PrC that my players adopted soon became outrageously overpowered and rather made the other PCs feel more like henchmen.

Finally, how has this sheer volume of information changed the meta-game environment? As designers, how do you account for the many varieties and flavors that exist? How has the volume of options available altered your groups game play?

We play C&C now. Simple as that and after nearly a year, I think everyone in the group (except perhaps our newest player who's very much a rules heavy fan) is thrilled w/ the way our game moves along now. The removal of PrCs cuts down on about 1/3rd of the crunch out there anyway. Beyond that, if a PC wants to bring something into the game, I simply review it then and there and usually adopt it, without much concern that it will damage the campaign. C&C characters being on the whole a bit less powerful than there 3.X counterparts, I've not had any problems yet.

 

[ARandomGod]

I do kind of like the house rule "once you take the prestige class, you *stay* in the prestige class until you finish its levels".

That wouldn't work for me as a player. I don't think that there are ANY classes I've stayed in until I've finished their levels, PrC's or otherwise.

Of course, to be fair there have been some classes I've planned on staying in. The Duelist, the Arcane Trickster, and the Dragon Disciple. Oh, and lately the Warforged Juggernaught.

Most of those are "core" PrC's, come to notice. Pretty much any other class I just dip into a little.

There's nothing like a ranger/monk/fighter/barbarian/duelist.
Or a ranger/sorc/fighter/barbarian/Juggernaught/Dragon Disciple.

To make a GM sit up and say "Can non-humans multiclass like that? Huh, I guess they can..."

 

[Arashi Ravenblade]

Basically at the beginning of a new game i allow my players to create ECL 5 character with the maximum level adjustment of +1, and they can choose from a list of races i scoured my books for, in my latest game i got rid of all plane touched as the situation would have excluded such a race, (though later on if a character dies and the situation becomes conveinient enough to allow such a race, ill consider it).

Prestige classes arent too much trouble, my players are lazy and not to technical (sometimes i feel like a genius in a room full of monkeys), and they dont look to abuse powers of the classes. Generally they stick to one class as they dont want to be a "multi-class monster" with tons of rules to keep track of. I do tend to however not allow prestige classes that require an organization or require you to be stuck somewhere (jordain vazier im talking to you). Though i have outright banned the Green Star Adept. Though not a class i have also banned the Vow of Poverty.

Generally all books on my shelf that have WOTC as the publisher is legal in my game. Everything else is allowed on a case by case basis.

Sort of off topic i wish WOTC would say whether a prestige class is more suited for a monster, npc, villain or someone other than a PC. Because honestly i look at some of the prestige classes and go "who would play this piece of trash" (again Jordain Vazier im talking to you).

 

[Zephyrus]

I generally allow most any WotC book in my games. I say most cause their are some things I dont like or have house rules for. But who doesnts?

Consider for a moment however that many of those core classes are mostly minor varients or are racial substitution levels and completly optional or worse yet (And I'm still wondering why make a point of it) some are the basic class listed multiple times for different campaign settings or source books provides 'fluff' or feats I sappose for them.

Further it appears that the listing is including both 3.0 and 3.5 classes including revised classes that reappeared in later books. 148 Classes and 608 Prestige Classes is not an accurate represenation of the classes out their.

Their are some classes that I dont agree with, usually the requriements or certain abilities I dont agree with (Psychic Strike on the soul knife I think is a bit powerful, but thats perhaps because I've not been able to identify its true limitations or the limits I see are not sufficient) (Arcane Trickster I think should only need 2d6 of sneak attack. the class doesnt strike me as a class that requires a 8th level character just to qualify).

I think many of the classes are made well and work well. Many of the new core classes are written is such a way (like they intended) to make them worth while all the way to 20th level w/o Pclassing. Some of hte P-Classes I Think are weak, from a purely mechanical point of view, but from a theme point of view their quite reasonable and well done. However I feel even theme classes should be worth while even if they are not intended for players (or are intended for evil or villinous NPCs).

I've found ways to make particularly nasty potent characters including, to name a few:

Sun or Grey Elf Warmage w/ a 20 Int (because of +2 racial bonus Int). This combo makes for 3+Bonus Spells Caster Level 1 Magic Missile spells that deal 6-10pts of damage each. Infact the only problem I had with this class making it was trying to figure out what to do with all the skill points (I actully took Profession [Seige Engineer] as a way to help burn off skill points)

A 1st level Fighter w/ Education can take Knowledge [Arcane] and not actually take a Bard or Sorcerer till 5th level (reccommend 3rd level if Warmage to take 'battlecaster' feat) and then take Dragon Disciple. Since the revised Dragon Disciple is made to be more a fighter type now its even better, but this could work I think even with the old 3.0 version. Make the character nastier by having a good dexterity and taking combat reflexes with a reach weapon like a glaive. In the old 3.0 version of the Dragon Disciple where you actually grew a size catagory you could take 'Large and In Charge' for an even nastier combo.

thats just to name a couple. These are powerful combo's and some might say abusive. they are strong characters but it still takes time for the disciple to get into his prime and the Elven Warmage depending on how stats are generated may have next to nothing else or even negative stats to make up for the (base) 18 in Int. (infact in 32pt buy you'd have to take a hit in CON (and possible STR if Grey Elf) in order to do this cause of the need to have the minimum Charisma nessisary just to cast spells. STR 10 (or 8 if Grey Elf), DEX 10 (or 12 if Grey Elf), CON 8, INT 20, WIS 10, CHA 12. This character will a cloak of charisma just to be able to keep on top of the minimum charisma requirement to cast spells of 5th level or higher. Then take into account the need for this character rely heavily on touch attack spells or similar spells w/o saves (as they will surely be passed with such a low save DC). With a bearly above average dex ranged touch attacks will be harder too.

As far as design of new material goes. They've done a good job of keeping in mind metagamer's and provide fairly clearly define limits to power (however in some cases they've missed. the New Surge weapon enhancements in DMG ][ being an example of this. A creature with a very high Constitution has a massive advantage when it comes to the number of times this enhancement can be used).

 

[sjmiller]

Our group has solved the over abundance problem largely by ignoring it. First, we play 3.0, so that eliminates all the 3.5 stuff. Second, I bought very few of the 3.0 books, so that limits it even more. Third, the party is currently not high enough level for prestige classes, but I doubt that will be a problem. Fourth, the party doen't really multi-class, with one exception, so that cuts down on the classes too.

Basically, I am not worried about it. If someone came to me with a class they wished to play, I would look and see if it fit, and then decide at that point. I don't see that happening any time soon.

 

[ARandomGod]

I am very, very seriously considering running my next game as core rules only. Personally, I'd love if WotC put out a "Basic Complete" that had the best 4-5 expansion base classes, the best score of PrCs, the best 100 or so feats, and the cream of the new magic item properties, weapons, etc. Even if it was all reprint, there's a very, very good chance I'd buy it, just to reduce clutter. As it is, I've essentially stopped buying books.

But as to your actual question, I agree with Mercule here. In the main I don't buy expansion books. There's just too much out there, and I don't really care. I'll make up my own PrC's in my campaigns. They haven't given rules for that but it's not too hard to figure out, and it makes more sense that way anyhow. These are actual Prestige Classes that I make up, not alternate core classes that are just picked up like people generally play printed PrC's. There's a story, you can get into the "group" or not, and the "pre-requisites" either make sense or can sometimes be overlooked. If the guild wants you in, and you don't have weapon focus X, well, assuming you're good enough with that weapon they won't know. They don't have some magical ability to look at your "feat list".

I don't buy new materials generally, other than perhaps modules (I've been known to buy a few of those). I'll look at the book someone else has (maybe even in the store), write down for later reference what I might 'need' from that book, and that's it.

 

[Taluron]

We play C&C now.

What's C&C?

 

[Psion]

What's C&C?

Creeks & Crawdads.

Er, or it might be referring to Castles & Crusades, TLG's much-hyped retro version of d20 fantasy.