D&D needs to grow up

[johnnype]

Forgive me if this doesn't make a lot of sense. It's more of a stream of thought without a cogent or wellformed thesis.

What do I mean when I say D&D needs to grow up? I'm not talking about the rules. I'm referring to the artwork, fiction and the feel of the game.

The game needs to drop the teen mentality it's had for years and get serious. It needs to lose the veneer of Saturday morning cartoon and get some dirt underneath it's nails. It needs to ramp up the brutality that is "killing monsters" and facing horrors from another plane. It needs to go from a game for kids to a game for adults.

Life in any D&D setting should be nasty, brutish and short. The artwork, fiction and setting material should reflect that. Currently it's PG or PG-13 at best and that just doesn't cut it anymore. To steal a term used elsewhere, it needs to be "grittified" the way Battlestar Galactica has when compared to the original series for example.

Admittedly WotC has done that with the introduction of the "points of light" idea that has been much discussed and that's all well and good. I'm just not seeing it in the artwork or fiction anywhere. Sure there are nasty looking monsters and there is plenty of artwork showing "heroes" battling "evil". Yet I see no blood. I see no dead bodies. I see no poverty or misery. I see too many heroes winning the day and living far too long to fight another day.

I don't really know if I'm making much sense here so feel free to tear this post apart. I guess if I wanted to boil it down to it's essence I want D&D to have all the grit of A Game of Thrones but with all the magic and monsters that D&D allows. I know a large part of that is in the hands of the DM but it would be very helpful and evocative if the published materials also reflected something a little less adolescent and more in line with the existing audience.

Just a thought.

 

[Aus_Snow]

That would be awesome. However, I don't believe it's going to happen, any time soon at least.

It's rare you see gritty + high magic (even when mostly in terms of aesthetics), especially done well.

 

[Obryn]

I don't think D&D does gritty fantasy particularly well. At least, it hasn't for several editions. And even in the OD&D/BX/1e days, it was only gritty for the first few levels.

A much better game for those purposes would be WFRP2. It's a system that's designed around gritty play, and doesn't require massive revision to get it working.

-O

 

[seusomon]

I hear you.

But I guess the big question is what you mean by "needs to..." Is that grittier flavor something you would personally prefer, or is it something that you think would actually help the game (attract more players, produce a better experience for players, etc.)

Looking around, it seems the PG-13 action genre is hard to beat. We were watching Star Wars movies last weekend, and I was struck by how much like D&D they are: lots of action, cool looking characters and monsters, superhuman/magical buffs for everyone, and very little graphic violence (lots of minions going down, an occasional dramatic injury in a climactic scene, that is dramatic but not gruesome or realistically bloody.

I think this is the flavor that most people are drawn to. It's a kind of escapism. If they want grit, they're more likely to go in the direction of crime drama or something.

I like the PG-13 heroic fantasy being the default atmosphere of D&D. That makes a relatively benign and easy starting place for DMs to take their own campaigns in a different direction: grittier, less flashy, surreal, moody, whatever.

 

[johnnype]

WFR2 is a spot on recommendation. I was actually thinking about that exact game as I was finishing my post. Thanks for reminding me. I already own the entire line.

Star Wars is a good comparison. I remember a movie critic (Richard Roeper I think) commenting in his review of Episode 1 how the movie was completely devoid of blood. I enjoyed the movie as much as anyone but that "feature" was anything but in my opinion. In fact I'm fairly certain he pointed it out more as a back handed complement than anything else. Regardless, This thread is not about SW or movies it's about D&D so I'll stop comparing the two.

 

[Clavis]

Perhaps its not so much that D&D needs to grow up, so much as remember that it's an adult. 1st Edition AD&D was an adult's game. Succubi and mermaids were naked, your character could get intestinal parasites, and if you went into a city you would encounter slovenly trulls and expensive doxies. Characters died all the time, and a player didn't plan out a "character build" because their PC wasn't necessarily going to see their next level. PCs weren't dripping with "kewl powerz", so players had to actually think their way of bad situations. It was a Swords and Sorcery game were your character advanced based mostly on how much treasure they could steal, and advanced slowly at that. It was after Gygax was forced out of TSR the company decided to make the game safe for the Mothers of America. The art simply reflects the kind of game that D&D has degenerated into since then.

 

[renau1g]

I'm not so sure if making female monsters naked is going to enhance the game for anyone... personally not every adult likes that. I agree that it might need some added grit, but nudity doesn't equal better or more adult.

I know it would probably alienate a large amount of female characters if the game went back to that...

I also don't think character death should happen every level or before they can get passed the first foe, yes the world is dangerous, but the PC's are heroes! They're not average slobs just picking up a blade, they're the stuff of legends, the King Arthers & Merlin's of the world...

I don't think they should have their run of the world, and I frequently throw harder than required monsters, that they need to run from else they die. I pull no punches, but I also don't make it a goal to kill them.

 

[EATherrian]

I don't think D&D does gritty fantasy particularly well. At least, it hasn't for several editions. And even in the OD&D/BX/1e days, it was only gritty for the first few levels.

A much better game for those purposes would be WFRP2. It's a system that's designed around gritty play, and doesn't require massive revision to get it working.

-O

I agree with that and I think it's not accidental. D&D I think is so based on pulp adventure and heroic fantasy that true grit is very hard to model. WFRP2 is good, and I'm waiting to see how ASOIF turns out. I think it may be the new "Grit King"

 

[Andre]

Three points:

1) D&D is not about grim and gritty. It's always been about high fantasy. I'm not saying the rules can't be significantly modified to work in a grim and gritty setting, but I suspect most gamers would not recognize the game as "D&D".

2) I like heroes. I like players who work together to save the world. I don't want to play in Song of Ice and Fire, no matter how many people like Martin's work. If D&D moves in that direction, some will be pleased, some won't. I'm in the latter category.

3) Tabletop RPG's are declining, or at best holding even at a low level. Even WOTC concedes that other pasttimes, such as World of Warcraft, are D&D's primary competitor. If D&D moves in a direction that would cause most parents to not allow their kids to get within a mile of it, WOTC is betting the farm that they can bring in enough new adults to keep the game viable. I don't believe that's a good bet. Adults have money, but too little time - and tabletop RPG's tend to be time sinks, especially for the GM.

 

[Doug McCrae]

Yet I see no blood. I see no dead bodies. I see no poverty or misery.

I see the desire for these, and all the other things you asked for, as essentially adolescent. No one is more cynical than teenagers. They distrust authority and the status quo. Products marketed at male teens feature more gore and nudity than those aimed at any other age group. Think slasher movies, low budget B-movies. The protagonists of these films are in their teens. The viewers are in their teens. Think heavy metal. It's all about sex, drugs and worshipping the devil. All the interests of your typical outsider teen - the core audience of D&D.

Trends have varied over the years. The cover of the OD&D book, Eldritch Wizardry, is probably the most metüll D&D has ever been. 2e took out the nipples, demons and assassins. 3e brought em back. 4e took away two of the three. So yeah, in terms of trappings, artwork, D&D is in a more family friendly phase right now. Gives it more mass market appeal.

In terms of rules, D&D has never been grim n' gritty. There was a supplement by that very name for 3e, available for free download. Or you could go real old school with the Arduin Grimoire critical tables.