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D&D New Edition Design Looks Soon?
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<blockquote data-quote="Stalker0" data-source="post: 8692643" data-attributes="member: 5889"><p>I would say they are so different that I wouldn't even call 3e "grindy". In fact I think 3e had the opposite problem from 4e.</p><p></p><p>Grind in 4e was often described as "action without purpose". Because defense was higher than offense, the players often knew they were going to win, and it was all just going through the motions. A fight in 4e could take 10 rounds, but rounds 6-10 were basically just "I attack, I deal X...move on". That's the kind of grind I am referring to.</p><p></p><p>3rd edition combats from a round standpoint were fast, lightning fast. It was often described as "rocket tag", where the higher the level, the faster the combat. Combats were often over in 1-2 rounds, and pretty much "decided" in the first round at higher levels.</p><p></p><p>However, what I think you are referring to is the "resolution time" of 3e. A round of 3e could take an excessive amount of real time to complete due to the number and complexity of mechanics. One dispel magic = a dozen rolls and recalculations. One strength boosting spell = 5-6 areas to update your sheet, etc etc. And of course the sheer amount of math. I absolutely feel this, I am playing in a 1e pathfinder game where we are 17th level, and let me tell you, combats are SLOOOOOWWW. Not in rounds mind you, again 1-2 rounds is the norm, but those 2 rounds can take 2 hours to run.</p><p></p><p>In terms of which is worse it depends on your point of view and your party's composition. If you're playing a martial heavy group in 3e resolution times aren't that bad. If your playing a heavy striker group in 4e, grind isn't too bad. Also in 3e, people could sometimes just "tune out", they talk, grab a snack, play on the phone, whatever. Whether that was enjoyable or not was of course up to them. 4e its harder to tune out because your turn comes up quicker, so in theory you are more engaged...but if aren't feeling threatened or that your turn is very important your not going to ever get that excited either.</p><p></p><p>I think when people look fondly back on 3e, its really "sweet spot" 3e. Sweet spot 3e is like 3-8th level....hell Epic 6 was created specifically to maximize the sweet spot experience. Sweet Spot 3e is some of the best dnd has to offer, its superior to 4e in many ways and in 5e in some ways. There are lots and lots of options, but they are all relatively balanced with each other. Casters and noncasters are relatively balanced. The number of encounters you can do each day....pretty solid but not too much. The time to resolve a combat, pretty quick. Everything just kind of "works" in that level range. Its really when you play outside it that the real evil of 3e mechanics begins to haunt you, and very high level 3e is an absolute nightmare.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Stalker0, post: 8692643, member: 5889"] I would say they are so different that I wouldn't even call 3e "grindy". In fact I think 3e had the opposite problem from 4e. Grind in 4e was often described as "action without purpose". Because defense was higher than offense, the players often knew they were going to win, and it was all just going through the motions. A fight in 4e could take 10 rounds, but rounds 6-10 were basically just "I attack, I deal X...move on". That's the kind of grind I am referring to. 3rd edition combats from a round standpoint were fast, lightning fast. It was often described as "rocket tag", where the higher the level, the faster the combat. Combats were often over in 1-2 rounds, and pretty much "decided" in the first round at higher levels. However, what I think you are referring to is the "resolution time" of 3e. A round of 3e could take an excessive amount of real time to complete due to the number and complexity of mechanics. One dispel magic = a dozen rolls and recalculations. One strength boosting spell = 5-6 areas to update your sheet, etc etc. And of course the sheer amount of math. I absolutely feel this, I am playing in a 1e pathfinder game where we are 17th level, and let me tell you, combats are SLOOOOOWWW. Not in rounds mind you, again 1-2 rounds is the norm, but those 2 rounds can take 2 hours to run. In terms of which is worse it depends on your point of view and your party's composition. If you're playing a martial heavy group in 3e resolution times aren't that bad. If your playing a heavy striker group in 4e, grind isn't too bad. Also in 3e, people could sometimes just "tune out", they talk, grab a snack, play on the phone, whatever. Whether that was enjoyable or not was of course up to them. 4e its harder to tune out because your turn comes up quicker, so in theory you are more engaged...but if aren't feeling threatened or that your turn is very important your not going to ever get that excited either. I think when people look fondly back on 3e, its really "sweet spot" 3e. Sweet spot 3e is like 3-8th level....hell Epic 6 was created specifically to maximize the sweet spot experience. Sweet Spot 3e is some of the best dnd has to offer, its superior to 4e in many ways and in 5e in some ways. There are lots and lots of options, but they are all relatively balanced with each other. Casters and noncasters are relatively balanced. The number of encounters you can do each day....pretty solid but not too much. The time to resolve a combat, pretty quick. Everything just kind of "works" in that level range. Its really when you play outside it that the real evil of 3e mechanics begins to haunt you, and very high level 3e is an absolute nightmare. [/QUOTE]
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