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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ruin Explorer" data-source="post: 8692987" data-attributes="member: 18"><p>Both gradually fell apart at around 10th, just in different ways. 4E it was more specifically 11-13, as you just got so many Reaction, Interrupt, Immediate and so on abilities on PCs and monsters that things slowed to a crawl, and there was, frankly, too much in the way of move-countermove. 3E LFQW had become so extreme by 10 that you might as well forget non-casters or bad casters. Other factors caused 3E problems as well - the CR system completely broke down at that point, and became actively disingenuous, the magic item reliance got much larger, mechanically (without ever being as honestly explained as 4E), the 5-minute workday and "scry and fry" started becoming increasing issues (even if players resist them, at that sort of level they become obviously reasonable approaches).</p></blockquote><p></p>