D&D Wargaming-- Good vs Evil [Waiting List Recruitment]

[Fieari]

I spent several hours some days ago reading through "How would you defend a mountain fortress" in the archived threads section, and was enthralled by it all. It was really fascinating stuff. I was wondering if there'd be interest in running a message board game in a similar style, although with a slightly lower power system.

My thought would be that there would be two sides, a monstrous one, and a humanoid one, in war with each other. The players would be generals of an army under their care, and would get to design their army and deploy it as they would see fit. There'd be two threads, one for one army, one for the other, and on the honor system, players would not look between the threads. When battles occur or scouts report, I'd be the go-between.

I was thinking that each general would get the same EL, by Upper Krust's Immortal Handbook method, which they would be allowed to distribute as they saw fit... though I think a level cap'll also be instituted... no giving a single unit more than X CR.

Would anyone be interested in something like this? Any suggestions for setting, sides, story, etc? Thoughts on the rules for set up?

EDIT: The following rules were developed over the next four or so thread pages and are summarized here:

ARMY CREATION RULES
-------------------

[b]Point System[/b]
You are allocated 1000 points (to begin with) that may be used to "buy" units 
for your army.  You are not required to spend all your points immediately, but 
may only spend them while in your own country and not under seige.

As you fight, your reputation increases, and you are given more points with 
which you can buy CR.  Even defeats can increase your reputation, depending on 
the nature of the defeat.

[b]Purchasing CR for individual units[/b]
In order to purchase CR, square the CR value, and subtract that number from your
point total.

Table 1: Common CRs and Point Values
CR	Point Value	CR	Point Value
-------------------------------------------
2/3	4/9		11	121
1	1		12	144
2	4		13	169
3	9		14	196
4	12		15	225
5	25		16	256
6	36		17	289
7	49		18	324
8	64		19	361
9	81		20	400
10	100		21	441


[b]Unit Support[/b]
Units with a CR above a certain value known as the "baseline" require support.  
Support required is both in terms of numbers of units, and point value of those 
units. For each unit that requires support, you must have at least a number of 
other, weaker units equal in number to the point value of that unit.  The point 
value of these units must also equal the point value of the unit they are 
supporting.

[i]Cascading Support[/i]
If you have units above the baseline you wish to support other units, you may.  
These units also require support-- however, the support units to this support 
unit contribute to the CR and unit numbers needed.

Example: The baseline is CR5.  You have a CR7 unit, which requires 49 support 
units and 49 support CR.  As part of that support, you wish to add a CR6 unit, 
which requires 36 support units and CR.  To support the CR6 unit, you use 36 CR1
units.  These 36 CR1 units count towards both the CR6 unit AND the CR7 unit.

Counter Example: The baseline is CR5.  You have two CR7 units, each of which 
require 49 support units and CR.  You may not support both with the same 49 CR1
units, you must have 98 CR1 units instead.

[i]Baseline Calculation[/i]
The baseline unit, that is to say, the CR of units that require 0 support is 
dependant on your current total points.  The formula is as follows:
	BaselineCR = sqrt(TotalPoints * 1/40)
This is the same thing as saying
	BaselinePointValue = TotalPoints * 1/40

The following chart describes the baseline CR for various point ranges.

Table 2: Baseline CRs by Total Points
Total Points	Baseline CR
----------------------------
1000		5
1440		6
1960		7
2560		8
3240		9
4000		10
4840		11
5760		12
6760		13
7840		14
9000		15
10240		16
11560		17
12960		18
14440		19
16000		20

If you have a total point value between these points, and wish to calculate a 
baseline CR to a fractional precision, feel free.

[b]CR Caps[/b]
No unit in your army may have a point value greater than 1/4 your total points.

Table 3: Maximum CRs by Total Points
Total Points	Maximum CR
--------------------------
900		15
1024		16
1156		17
1296		18
1444		19
1600		20
1764		21
1936		22
2116		23
2304		24
2500		25
2704		26
2916		27
3136		28
3364		29
3600		30

[b]CR Rules[/b]
In order to accomadate customized creatures (which are welcome) and to have a 
more realistic and fairer value for most monsters, we are using Upper Krust's 
modified CR values and system from his "Immortal's Handbook".  The PDF for this 
system is provided free at the following thread:
[url]http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=66470[/url] 

The PDF available for download at that location provides a list of CRs for most 
of the standard creatures in the D&D universe, and you may use these values.  
The column to use is "Silver Rule" which is the fourth number next 
to each monster.

[i]PCs and NPCs[/i]
PC and NPC classes are handled more easily.  When using a PC Race with a PC 
Class, one Level equals one CR, two levels equals two CR, etc.  

NPCs, on the other hand, are worth CR2/3 per level.  So a unit with two levels 
in an NPC class is valued at CR1.333

[i]PC and NPC equipment[/i]
These units come equipped with whatever equipment they can purchase with the 
gold they are allotted in section 13 of that PDF, reprinted here:

PC Equipment Value: Level * Level * Level * 100 gp.
NPC Equipment Value: Level * Level * Level * 25 gp.

This gold may not be pooled with other units.  This is each unit's personal gold
with which to buy equipment for him or herself.  The equipment purchased, 
however, may be used to outfit others.

Table 4: Gold by Level
PC gp	NPC gp	Level
---------------------
100	25	1
800	200	2
2700	225	3
6400	1600	4
12500	3125	5
21600	5400	6
34300	8575	7
51200	12800	8
72900	18225	9
100000	25000	10
133100	33275	11
172800	43200	12
219700	54925	13
274400	68600	14
337500	84375	15
409600	102400	16
491300	122825	17
583200	145800	18
685900	171475	19
800000	200000	20

[i]Using Equipmentless Units, or Adding More Equipment[/i]
At your discretion, you may also create PCs or NPCs without equipment, or with 
higher or lower level equipment then they would normally have.

When doing this, modify the CR of the unit as follows:

For each level of equipment REMOVED from a unit:
	Subtract CR0.2 per level for PCs
	Subtract CR0.125 per level for NPCs
For each level of equipment ADDED to a unit:
	Add CR0.2 per level for PCs
	Add CR0.125 per level for NPCs

[b]Unit Experience[/b]
PC and NPC units will gain experience and level up due to battle.  Starting 
units begin with an additional amount of experience equal to half of what they 
need to reach their next level.

This experience may be used for item creation purposes, for wishes, or for 
whatever experience is needed for.

[b]Additional Resources[/b]
Your army is also given 250,000gp to dispose of as it desires.  This may be used
to purchase additional equipment or materials and components needed for units 
with the required feats to create items.

Additional funds may be obtained through various methods during the actual game.

[b]Purchasing Equipment[/b]
All prices are as listed in the core books.

[i]On The Subject of Horses[/i]
This game makes a distinction between three different types of horses, as opposed to only two in the core books.  Normal, Combat, and War.

Horse: Cost, 75 gp light, 200 gp heavy. Will stay away from battle without a DC20 Ride check.
Combat Horse: Cost, 150 gp light, 400 gp heavy. Will go into battle, but will not attack, and will leave combat immediately if rider lost.
Warhorse: Cost, 9 pts light, 16 pts, heavy. Will go into battle and attack with its rider, and will continue fighting even if its rider is lost.

Please note that Horses and Combat Horses can be purchased as gear, but Warhorses must have their CR be taken into account and truely be part of your army.

GOOD ONLY Rogue's Gallery - Don't click if evil!

EVIL ONLY Rogue's Gallery - Don't click if good!

EDIT2: IT HAS BEGUN!

Evil --- Evil vs Good: D&D Wargaming
Good --- Good vs Evil: D&D Wargaming

Still open to recruits though. Additional armies added as soon as both sides have equal ready commanders.

 

[Fieari]

Oops! Posted this in the wrong forum... thought I was in "Talking the Talk"! If a moderator would kindly move it?

 

[Piratecat]

No problem.

 

[Uriel]

I'm a minis nut, so I'd be into a Wargame using D20, if that is what you are proposing.

 

[Fieari]

As I mentioned, what I had in mind was something similar to This thread except that instead of just suggesting how someone else deploys their units, you get direct control over your own armies. The ranks would be made up with characters designed by you, and they would be deployed as you desire, and then when actual confrontations occure, I'll do the number crunching and dice rolling to figure out what happens (to both sides).

A little more specific than just wargaming with D20. Additionally, the war isn't the only thing going on... you're going to be generals, so you need a PC as well (which will be part of your army... you can make yourself an epic guy if you want, at the cost of army power, or make yourself weak and get a stronger overall force) and as generals, there'll be roleplaying as usual. And seeing as how this is a war, politics will be involved, and you'll need to negotiate to cross forign territory if you might need to do that at some point, and you'll need to worry about reprecussions to the landscape and civilians and... etc etc etc.

It's still D&D, but on a larger scale. Wargaming with a lot more to worry about, you could say.

 

[Radiant]

well, I just sold my 6 armies of various wargaming systems but this sounds interesting. I'd love to play.

 

[Fieari]

*bump*

Also, again, asking for setting thoughts? Rules thoughts?

Specific thoughts I'd like comments on: I think this would work well as a mutating game... that is to say, the players aren't constant. As long as there are an equal number of generals on either side of the war, I'd be able to grow or shrink the players as needed... in groups of two, of course.

Which would mean we could start with two players. Who wants to be good, who wants to be evil?

Some restrictions that I think will make things grittier... no raising the dead as anything but the undead, which are in general weaker than the living, and even when they aren't, they're vulnerable to a large number of spells and things that only effect them, and do so quite well indeed. This also means that attrition is possible. Without this limitation, stocking enough clerics of sufficient level in your army means that armies could take their time and suffer almost no net losses over the course of a campaign.

I'm slightly unconfortable with epic levels right now, but I also don't want to ban epic levels right out. I was thinking that anything with epic levels counts double their CR towards your army's max. This means that you'll need to use any epic level stuff more strategicly and carefully. What do you guys think about this subject?

Similar to the epic level stuff... Gate is also a tricky spell... you could summon an infernal or celestial army of theoretically limitless size. I'd personally be in favor of banning this spell... thoughts?

I'd also like to encourage the "large masses of troops" epic style imagery. An army of orcs or skeletons or whatever that cover the landscape like fields of corn just strikes me as cool. That might not be the best tactical distribution of resources though, so I think some sort of rule needs to be imposed that forces large numbers of units... opinions?

What EL/CR do you think would be good for an army?

I'd also like terrain suggestions. The "good" countryside should look different than the "evil" countryside. Mood is important in these matters. And of course, mountains and lakes and rivers and seas are important for tactics... I think the boundry between the nations should be something difficult to cross, to make reinforcements and supply chains difficult and important. Like, a desert, or mountain range, or an ocean between the realms. Well, maybe not an ocean... but a large lake, or a raging river....

I await your responces eagerly.

 

[Radiant]

ok, I have to correct myself. After reading through the siege discussion I must say that with all those epic powers flying around these fights are so far removed from conventional tactics that my limited D&D experinces sure as hell won't be enough to manage the burocratic nightmare of that magic explosion.

 

[Pyrex]

... but I also don't want to ban epic levels right out... I'd also like to encourage the "large masses of troops" style imagery...

An easy solution to both problems would be that any creature above CR2 has it's CR squared when figuring how many CR worth of toops each player gets.

Fer ex, you could have each player start off as a captain in charge of 100CR worth of creatures. After a couple skirmishes you promote them to generals in charge of 1000CR worth of creatures.

 

[Fieari]

I like that idea... but instead of just "Square CRs over 2", just square everything. Which means being able to have EVEN MORE of the really little guys.

So, assuming you get 100CR to work with.

By UKs rules, Kobolds (and Goblins, for that matter) are 2/3 CR. So each Kobold counts as 4/9 CR to your total, which means you could have 225 Kobolds (or Goblins, or any other 2/3 CR creatures) running around.

On the other hand, if you wanted to stock your army with Nightmares (CR9)... well, you could have one, and have 11 CR left over, so you could have a CR3 creature riding that Nightmare. Not really that effective unless you're allowed more CR.

That should do nicely. Since territory and cities'll be important, you'll want to have large masses of creatures, simply for flexibility.