d20 CoC--a preview of 4th Edition D&D?

[Thorvald Kviksverd]

Oh, and please...just one 'D' in my name.

(Thorvald heads towards blackboard...)

WizarDru, WizarDru, WizarDru, WizarDru, WizarDru, WizarDru, WizarDru, WizarDru, WizarDru, WizarDru, WizarDru, WizarDru, WizarDru, WizarDru, WizarDru, WizarDru, WizarDru. . .

 

[jaerdaph]

But they're still classes, regardless of how similar and unflavored they may be, and they have specific class-dependent benefits, again regardless of how similar in nature they are

Sorry, but I still have to disagree

Anything the Offense or Defense options give a CoC character is related to character level, not class - the same things found on the level-dependent benefits charts at the begining of chapter 3 of the PHB. Think of it in terms of D&D multiclassing and class level vs. character level, and it makes more sense that d20 CoC doesn't have classes but only character levels.

 

[jaerdaph]

I would argue that D&D without classes is no longer what I consider D&D.

I agree with that 100%, however

 

[Geoffrey]

Thank you, Thorvald Kviksverd, for emphasizing the wording in my original post. I'm simply wondering out loud if Monte Cook (who is one of the designers of 3E and also the designer of d20 CoC) might have some thoughts or insights into where the 3E game is headed, which will probably one day result in 4E.

As to the four things I mentioned, the only one I would like to see dropped is AoO. The other three I think belong in D&D. Nevertheless, I've seen a number of 3E fans express their wishes that these things be dropped from the core rules of the yet-to-be-written 4E.

 

[Geoffrey]

I was looking through the thread entitled "If there was one thing about 3rdE that you could change, what would it be?" On the fourth page of that thread the moderator Dinkeldog summed up the thread rather nicely:

"Notice that almost all of the recommendations here move 4E even further away from 1E than 3E is. There are calls for to-hit locations, eliminating classes, reducing classes, removing hit points, changing magic systems, and eliminating alignment."

While not identical to my list of four things, it is certainly similar. I wish I had thought to mention d20 Call of Cthulhu's lack of a "fire and forget" magic system. I've seen several people (including some in the above-mentioned thread) complain about D&D's Vancian magic system. In CoC you can cast any spell you know as many times as you wish. However, you don't want to cast spells too often because doing so hurts you (usually by reducing ability scores and/or sanity score).

 

[Geoffrey]

Some posters in this thread suggested that if character classes or alignment were taken out of 4E, it wouldn't be D&D. Let me quote Administrator Grazzt from the same thread I quoted in my post right above this. (His post is in response to someone saying that alignment is essential to D&D.):

"There are already a lot of people out there that say 3e isn't D&D. That it is too far removed from the original rules. Check the internet, I can think of a few sites that scream and yell that d20 and WotC and 3e ruined D&D.

Granted it is a lot different than anything previous, but take for example, a car: a camaro. Look at the late 60's and early 70's camaros, then look at a 2002 camaro. Totally different, and whether ya like it or not...its still a camaro. Just like 3e is different than its previous models, and whether ya like it or not..its still D&D. "

 

[Aaron2]

As to the four things I mentioned, the only one I would like to see dropped is AoO.

D&D has always had AoOs. It just went from a specific rules exception ("If your opponent flees, you get a free attack") to a general rule ("If your opponent is distracted, you get a free attack").

Its not something you can drop. There has to be rules about fleeing, distracted and helpless opponents. Plus AoOs makes weapon length rules significantly simpler.

Aaron

 

[jaerdaph]

I should also point out that I find it kind of funny that there is an implicit assumption that there must be a 4E at some point. Not that it's a bad thing...but people were asking this question the same month that 3E's PHB came out. Have we become so jaded?

And on that note, so we don't jinx it, we should probably stay away from the Camero example: I believe Chevy cancelled that model of cars this year!

 

[Zappo]

I should also point out that I find it kind of funny that there is an implicit assumption that there must be a 4E at some point. Not that it's a bad thing...but people were asking this question the same month that 3E's PHB came out. Have we become so jaded?

I think there will be the need for a 4th edition sooner or later, simply because society and gamers will evolve and the game will have to follow.

 

[Kanegrundar]

I think there will be the need for a 4th edition sooner or later, simply because society and gamers will evolve and the game will have to follow.

Heh. Who says? Palladium has changed very little...not that that's a good thing by any stretch of the imagination!

Kane