d20 Experience-Advancement Models

[TerraDave]

I don't generally like the training model as it leads to needing lots of downtime which is usually not appropriate for the plots I have in mind. Or to the heroic style I espouse..)

Another alternative is pacing more like a series of novel or epic tale, where you can have a big adventure, and pick up some levels, but then years pass before the next one, during which time it is assumed (or spelled out) that charecters are preparing for the next wave. Of course, this has to be done in a way that doesn't disrupt the campaign and the players have to go along with it...

 

[Klaus]

Well, Keith "Hellcow" Baker often says that NPC (the tower wizard) don't use the same system of advancement as the PCs. A graying veteran human soldier may fight a war for 20 years and still be just a Warrior 2.

Why does it take the tower wizard 20 years to accomplish something an adventuing wizard can do in 4 years? Simple: the adventuring wizard is putting his bacon on the line and facing certain death on a daily basis. The tower wizard pores over old books and ponders about the mating rituals of unseen servants for months at a time.

And the tower wizard porbably was an adventurer in his youth, and advanced quite rapidly, but found that his death wish wasn't as strong as it used to be, and built a tower as soon as he achieved Name Level (9th?). From then on it slows down until he advances a level once every year.

 

[Yair]

Why does it take the tower wizard 20 years to accomplish something an adventuing wizard can do in 4 years? Simple: the adventuring wizard is putting his bacon on the line and facing certain death on a daily basis. The tower wizard pores over old books and ponders about the mating rituals of unseen servants for months at a time.

Sorry, but I just can't swallow this kind of explanation. I am going to active duty in the army for a while soon, and I assure you this will not improve my "level" in my current class (physicist - it's a d20 Modern advanced class ) in any way; in fact it will lower my physics skill ranks. Regardless of how many enemies I'll kill (hopefully none... what a dreadful thought), how much military opposition I'll face (hopefully little... this is getting scary), whether or not I'll manage to complete a "story goal", or so on.
This isn't a problem with wizards. It just makes no sense that Mo the Monk can now out-pommel his monastery's head Shaolin monk that has been training and teaching the order for the last two centuries just because he spent a couple of years in the war. He was a push-over two years before, and all the other monks were training just at martial arts all the time - that master must be intentionally slowing down their progress for fear of competition
Something special is needed for such a sudden increase in power to manifest, something supernatural or perhaps some sci-fi effect, something that will allow us to mentally make the exception. At least, that's what I think.

And the tower wizard porbably was an adventurer in his youth, and advanced quite rapidly, but found that his death wish wasn't as strong as it used to be, and built a tower as soon as he achieved Name Level (9th?). From then on it slows down until he advances a level once every year.

Name Level.... now there's a bit of nostalgia.

 

[JoeGKushner]

Sorry, but I just can't swallow this kind of explanation. I am going to active duty in the army for a while soon, and I assure you this will not improve my "level" in my current class (physicist - it's a d20 Modern advanced class ) in any way; in fact it will lower my physics skill ranks. Regardless of how many enemies I'll kill (hopefully none... what a dreadful thought), how much military opposition I'll face (hopefully little... this is getting scary), whether or not I'll manage to complete a "story goal", or so on.

But D&D doesn't have any real skill sets or way to advance without level adjustment. For your own example, you'll probably have some d20 Modern advancement in other areas, gaining proficiency, or improved profieicny, with many weapons, combat techniques, survival techniques, etc... Even if you were familiar with them before, you'll become more intimate with them now.

This isn't jus a level based problem either, although it's more noticible in such games. In Hero or GURPS for example, if you adventure and gain a lot of experience, you're still going to be beating the head of the monestary. You might not do it as easily or the victory might not be as obvious, but once you're start buying things like Damage Class (DC) for Hero with Combat Levels and increasing your stats, it's pretty much all over.

 

[diaglo]

Hmm, this sounds familiar...and its NOT OD&D! Are you suggesting a mechanic from another edition??

shhhh... don't tell anyone.

actually i've been using this mechanic since i first started gaming. it just made sense. esp concerning research for spells in Men & Magic and gaining levels for better chances to hit and more hps and so on...

i don't like the "it just happens off camera" rule.

 

[diaglo]

But D&D doesn't have any real skill sets or way to advance without level adjustment. For your own example, you'll probably have some d20 Modern advancement in other areas, gaining proficiency, or improved profieicny, with many weapons, combat techniques, survival techniques, etc... Even if you were familiar with them before, you'll become more intimate with them now.

This isn't jus a level based problem either, although it's more noticible in such games. In Hero or GURPS for example, if you adventure and gain a lot of experience, you're still going to be beating the head of the monestary. You might not do it as easily or the victory might not be as obvious, but once you're start buying things like Damage Class (DC) for Hero with Combat Levels and increasing your stats, it's pretty much all over.

look at pg 74 in your 3.11ed for WOrkgroups PHB. read the Handle Animal Skill.

along with craft skills in the same book to repair items or make items.

or the rules concerning down time in the Living campaigns.

there are rules in existence for training. just not ones to increase your ability. but ones to use.

so it is like reading physics books three thousand times... you can't grasp the concept ... until one day (you gain the xps) and you have an epiphany. and it all suddenly makes sense.

you can't teach an old dog new tricks... is true for many....

just like we all know how to bowl. but still we don't all bowl 300 every time. we tend to fall into the same rut and end up bowling an avg. and keep that avg until we train ourselves to do something different.... it means gambling. and making mistakes again.... but some times you do improve...

 

[leporidae]

Training time didn't work for my campaign

I also have been looking for ways to slow character advancement in terms of game time, partially because too rapid advance makes the levels seem like less of an achievement to the players, but is also tough on me as a GM to determine how NPC's react to someone who has gone from scrub to demi-god in six months. (There is also the problem of creating challenging encounters which can be difficult if characters are rapidly going up levels, but has more to do with how fast characters advance in relation to RL time.)

My first attempt was to add a training day requirement to go up levels, the problem is that one character or the other would always want to stop and spend time training, when either the other characters didn't need to, or thought thwarting the bad guy was too important to wait. Eventually, I relaxed the rules so that characters could go up one level past what they were trained for, and other times could bank one extra level's worth of training days. This made the training requirement flexible to the point of not being very meaningful. I concluded the rule added more bookkeeping and player conflict than fun to my campaign and dropped it when we started again.

My second idea was to increase the amount of experience needed to go up levels, almost to 1st Edition levels, where the required experience doubles at each level. This was too slow, and created the problem where losing a level was (in the long run) as bad as dying and starting a new character (because you'd be one level behind the rest of the group either way.) So I continued to tinker with experience requirements and awards, which tended to upset players, especially if they liked to forecast how long it would take them to go up to the next level.

For a new campaign I like the idea of taking periodic breaks, that is, tell the players that nothing adventure worthy is going to happen for at least the next year of game time and ask what their characters would do. It would give them a chance to add depth to their characters, and enable me to unwind (and create) plot threads in a realistic amount of time.

 

[the Jester]

The pace of advancement is my single biggest issue with the 3e xp system. It is way too fast. I have been giving serious thought to instituting a training time rule imc, but there are so many issues with it (as leporidae pointed out)- especially when my groups tend not just to advance at different times, but be different levels.

Pacing a dnd game is certainly an art- at lower levels, travel times make for a good slowing influence.