d20 Mash Up games?

[fireinthedust]

Pondering recently the potential of the d20 system, I've turned my procrastination efforts towards the potential of a Buffy-style game using various d20 rules.

I like mash-ups, not just the Glee variety, but the d20 variety. Maybe that's why I buy so many books that, realistically, I won't be able to use. Some day I'll be in a game where having the rules to play a giant robot barbarian fighting a Mage in a dinosaur-filled jungle holodeck program on a space cruiser is entirely necessary. (that and one day I and my family/friends would be pulled into a book like Gumbi and have to play through every single module I own to get out... which would be scary but cool).

In the old days it was a d20 Rifts idea: races from anywhere, technology from d20 Future and d20 Apocalypse. My group even humoured me, for all of one session, but the dynamic of the players was not like-minded (sadly) and things got boring fast. It's bad when non-gamers mock the idea of a game, but it's worse when hard-core players decide rpgs are stupid... to your face AS you're playing.

Anyway...

Now I'm wondering what could be done using the Monte Cook's World of Darkness rules (albeit NOT the setting) to run a Scooby's game. That and other d20 rules, maybe doing a d20 World of Darkness riff: changlings could use races like Elves and Dwarves, with Hunter characters being various human classes.

Ever done this sort of thing, even hypothetically?

 

[SolitonMan]

I've been thinking about this lately as well, I've been wanting to do a couple of games that would be somewhat cross-genre. I'd like to try a fantasy-western mix, where an evil wizard and some orcs are plaguing a frontier town of the Old West, with a transdimensional portal existing in a silver mine that straddles both worlds (3.5 and Sidewinder is what I was thinking).

I'd also like to see what sort of mischief my 18th level warlock could get up to in a modern setting (so d20 Modern with 3.5 rules). I don't have a definite agenda for such a game, but the possibilities are intriguing.

I haven't run any numbers on any of this, it's all hypothetical. But for the fantasy/western thing, I was thinking it could be low level (maybe 3rd-5th level wizard with typical warrior orc minions, plus one or two classed orcs of no more than 2nd level). The players could play characters from either world.

For the high level thing, that's mostly an exercise in theory, but I may spec out a few scenarios to get a feeling for how it would work. I'm not very familiar with the d20 Modern rules (like you, I acquire way more resources than I'll ever use - but I'm a "collector" ) so I don't know how effective the warlock's DR would be against, say, bullets. But I hope to find some interesting interactions.

I've done a tiny bit of mashing up in the past, and while it's interesting in the abstract, what I've found is that you need to have a clear picture of what you wish to accomplish, otherwise, as it sounds like you've discovered, you end up with TOO much potential, and thus go nowhere. By limiting the potential to a fragment that contains the elements you wish to explore, you can focus on the characters and interaction, and not worry so much about the plethora of options.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I've been thinking about this lately as well, I've been wanting to do a couple of games that would be somewhat cross-genre. I'd like to try a fantasy-western mix, where an evil wizard and some orcs are plaguing a frontier town of the Old West, with a transdimensional portal existing in a silver mine that straddles both worlds (3.5 and Sidewinder is what I was thinking).

I would think that Deadlands would be the natural starting point for doing such a campaign.

 

[fireinthedust]

I imagine the big deal with modern games is similar to how SWSE works: lots of ducking and shooting around cover, ranged battles, and computer use checks to access technology.

The game I tried was a western town with some cyborgs in it. The group got into a tavern, then along came a cyborg bounty hunter. The group beat him up (well, one of them did; another had issues with confrontations in RL, so he hid behind a table and gave up his turns), and then met with an NPC super scientist.

Aaaand that was it. Good game potential, but we didn't end up doing anything.

I'm wondering how big an issue guns are to game balance. I assume tracking ammunition would be the big issue, especially if the situation is (for example) a zombie survival scenario.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I'm wondering how big an issue guns are to game balance. I assume tracking ammunition would be the big issue, especially if the situation is (for example) a zombie survival scenario.

Ammo tracking can be an issue...but not much moreso than in non-mashup games, I would think. After all, archers and crossbowmen need to track their arrows & bolts, right? The big issue on ammo comes when you have a wide variety of ammo types.

Keeping arrows sorted from bolts is one thing, but when you need to distinguish between .22, .357, .38, .40, .45, .50, 9mm, 20mm, birdshot, 12 gauge, 7.62, AP, Tracers, Incendiaries, dum dums, hollowpoints, spent uranium, homing, explosive, flechette, rockets, RPGs, and power sources for energy weapons- just for personal sidearms- things can get bogged down.

 

[Diamond Cross]

Eden Studios already had a Buffy TVS RPG.

 

[SolitonMan]

I would think that Deadlands would be the natural starting point for doing such a campaign.

You'd think, but I was looking for a more fantastical version of fantasy. Tho I never did get deep into the "Hell on Earth" material, so it might be that that would contain what I'm looking for.

 

[fireinthedust]

Ammo tracking can be an issue...but not much moreso than in non-mashup games, I would think. After all, archers and crossbowmen need to track their arrows & bolts, right? The big issue on ammo comes when you have a wide variety of ammo types.

Keeping arrows sorted from bolts is one thing, but when you need to distinguish between .22, .357, .38, .40, .45, .50, 9mm, 20mm, birdshot, 12 gauge, 7.62, AP, Tracers, Incendiaries, dum dums, hollowpoints, spent uranium, homing, explosive, flechette, rockets, RPGs, and power sources for energy weapons- just for personal sidearms- things can get bogged down.

Hmm... well, I could use a basic # of shots per gun, similar to charges for wands. Every attack with said gun and they have to mark off a charge (including attack rolls for multi-attacks and suchnot).


How do games like Shadowrun work with magic and guns and technology? Or World of Darkness games with multiple creature types?

 

[Umbran]

How do games like Shadowrun work with magic and guns and technology?

For the most part, in Shadowrun, magic and guns/tech are orthogonal. Casting a spell or calling a spirit is not much like shooting a gun. You've got a mechanic for guns, and a mechanic for magic, and the two don't really intersect much.

Or World of Darkness games with multiple creature types?

That gets a little more odd. In oWoD, at least, every creature had a power resource - Vampires had blood points, Werewolves had gnosis, Mages had Quintessence, and so on. There weren't clear guidelines on how those would interact, and each GM who ran mixed-type games had to come up with their own rules.

But, otherwise, there isn't much of a problem - the root mechanics (like, stats and health and damage types) were largely the same across the systems, so you could use a power form one game in another easily.

 

[scourger]

I did a fair number of d20 stretches & mash-ups. I turned Rifts into Dragon Star and then into Omega World. I ran Omega World with Alternity adventures. I ran Spellslinger using Dungeon Adventures. I ran Judge Dredd. I ran The Shackled City using D&D, Star Wars jedi, Omega World mutants and Judge Dredd judges. I also played a number of d20 games that were set in non-fantasy genres. Even though I thought most of those games were successes, I think opinions vary within our group.

What I really learned is that d20 players are really D&D players, and that is the gaming experience they seek with a lot of pre-conceived notions about what the game should bring. Most of our Star Wars d20 games got turned into D&D-in-space, although the last one we played partially went in another (great) fun direction. Even Wheel of Time, another fantasy d20 game that another member of our group ran, only lasted a short time before we abandoned it as broken.

To be fair, d20 is great at what it does, which is D&D. The d20 system has (had?) the promise of being more generic, but it is hard to implement. Some of that difficulty is in the system but mostly it is the players. Simply put, d20 players want to play D&D.

So, my advice is to see if the players are interested in the d20 Scooby game first. From the description, I hear it as a kind of Buffy the Vampire Slayer game with the player characters encountering supernatural creatures and using medieval technology, including swords & sorcery, to vanquish the foes. If the players are interested, then decide what rules to use. I think Savage Worlds would be a better fit for a game like that, but you could certainly do d20. If the players are already familiar with d20, then just use those rules. The Players Handbook has plenty of classes and options, even if none of the characters is a magic user. The Dungeon Master's Guide (3e) has simple rules for firearms and even dynamite, although I don't think they would be widely used in a Scooby game. Add some modern knowledge skills and maybe one like pilot, and the rest is window dressing.