d20 Modern Damage Rules Problems

[comrade raoul]

I've got two main problems with the damage rules as they're articulated in d20 modern. First, I'm annoyed that any amount of massive damage is a relative non-issue (apart from HP damage) for characters with really good Fortitude saves. On a related note, characters with really good Fortitude saves can also practically never be knocked out (regardless as to how much non-lethal damage they take). The second problem has to do with large amounts of non-lethal damage; for a Constitution 12 character, he's in just as good a state after suffering a hundred punches for 11 points of non-lethal damage each as he is before suffering any, but a punch for 13 points of non-lethal damage is quite likely to knock him out in one strike. Characters can't wear each other down with non-lethal damage, and I think this is a problem.

I want to circumvent these problems with two rules: extreme damage and pummeling. Thoughts? Are these balanced?

Extreme Damage: For every 5 points of damage in excess of 20 or the character's maximum damage threshold (whichever is greater), the Fortitude save DC increases by +1. This also applies to extreme non-lethal damage for determining whether or not the character is knocked out.

Pummeled: Characters who take more non-lethal damage than their current hit points in a single encounter are pummeled. They are limited to one attack or move action per round.
Whenever a pummeled character suffers non-lethal damage, resolve the damage according to the total damage that the character suffered while being pummeled, not that attack. In other words, non-lethal damage is cumulative for a pummeled character. Even the toughest characters can be knocked out, even if only after taking prodigious amounts of non-lethal damage.
For example, suppose Bruno is in a brawl against four other characters and is losing badly. He took enough non-lethal damage to become pummeled in the prior round, but hasn't suffered any damage since then. In this round, he's punched three times, for 6, 4, and 7 points of damage. Since he has a Constitution of 16, he is unaffected by the first two punches, but, because he's pummeled, the third punch is treated as if it caused 17 points of damage (6+4+7) and thus exceeds his massive damage threshold. However, he makes his Fortitude save and remains conscious.
In next round, however, he's hit by four more punches, for 5, 3, 8, and 4 points of damage. Because the last punch is treated as though it caused 37 points of non-lethal damage (6+4+7+5+3+8+4), Bruno's Fortitude save DC is increased to 18 due to the extreme damage rules. He fails that save, and is down for the count.
A character can always catch his breath as a full-round action. Doing so eliminates 1d6 + his level + his Con modifier points of non-lethal damage for purposes of determining whether a character is pummeled, or what his damage total is once he's pummeled.

 

[voradams]

I think you nailed it there. I personally think that d20 Modern is deeply flawed in this regard. Even DnD3e handles massive damage better.

I am looking at modifying the rules to reflect modern combat better (I realise that d20 Modern in fantasy but people will want to run realistic games with it) including scaling the massive damage rules to size, and continual hp loss to represent bleeding.

Darryl

 

[Ranger REG]

I think you nailed it there. I personally think that d20 Modern is deeply flawed in this regard. Even DnD3e handles massive damage better.

I disagree, unless you are either talking about the DMG's variant rule or a house rule.

Both d20 Modern and 3e have similar massive damage rules, including the Fort Save vs. DC 15. The two differences are the threshold value (instead of flat 50, massive damage is equal to your Con Score) and instead of death, you are dying (-1 HP and going down) in d20 Modern.

 

[voradams]

Yes, there is a massive damage rule in <i>d20 Modern</i>. DC15 fort save to avoid goint strait to -1hp.

Lets take a 1st level character. If he has CON16 and a +2 fort save, he has 50% chance of making a DC15 save. It is academic, as anything over 17 damage will send him below 0 anyway.

However, a higher level character (Lets say CON 17, HP 50 and a +5 fort save) will have an easier time both surviving 17 points of damage, and making a DC15 fort save (around 80%) . No matter how much damage he takes.

a) A character has the same chance of surviving a well placed bullet and being at ground zero of a HEAT warhead.

b) There is no limit a character can take in damage in one round. This is not a bad thing in a cimematic style system (where characters can take a beeting, keep fighting with no hinderence), but it does not make sense.

Another thing, a Small Furry Creature from Alpha Centuri and a Bug Eye Monster from Betazed have the same damage threshold, CON. If you make a damage threshold size based, it makes it easier to blow away the sfcac and a lot more dificult to do the smae on the GEM.


My (tentaive , not even remotely playtested) damage rules.

A Medium size creature can take up to 50 points (or 5 x Con) in ONE attack and survive if he makes a Fort save of DC15 + 1 per 10 points of damage. If he fails, he goes to -1 as per d10M.

A Medium creature that takes 5x Con or more than 50 points of damage must make a Fort save of DC 20 + 1 per 10 points above 50. Failure is instant death. Success forces the character to go to -1 hp as per a success in the normal massive damage roll.

I want to work on this to make it flow better and have threshold numbers for all size bands.

Feedback and flames welcome.

 

[Plane Sailing]

I've made a simple adjustment to the basic rules.

I use the variant that threshold = 10 rather than = Con, as it eliminates some things that seem rather... strange.

next:

If someone takes more damage than the threshold value, they have to make a Fort ST or be reduced to -1hp and dying. The DC of that Fort ST is equal to the damage scored.

The threshold scales for differently sized creatures

F = 2
D =4
T = 6
S = 8

L = 20
H = 30
C = 40
G = 50

This system is simple and easy. It is not quite as deadly as it might first appear since I rule that Armour gives DR rather than defence. Archaic armour only gives half DR against ballistic weapons

 

[Scud-O]

please don't take this the wrong way, but have any of the people complaining about the damage rules actually played a game of D20 Modern yet? I am, of ocurse, being a hypocrite here, since I have yet to play a game, but it strikes me that these designers who get paid to come up with all this stuff sort of know what they're doing. why not give their version a try. Does it make sense in the "Real World"? nope. but, why the hell would you want it to? if what you are after is a grim-n-gritty gaming experience, i think that D20 just isn't for you. it is a cinematic game where heroes fight villians and people do miraculous things without as much as a bat of the eye. i am all for game tweaking and house ruling, i guess (although, i hate house ruling anything that has a written explanation--if the rules just DON'T cover something, house rule it, but otherwise, try the rules is my motto), but it just seems that a little over a week after release is a bit swift to be declaring things broken or flawed. but, hey, i am looking for escapism in my gaming, so i prefer the cinematic "get-shot-get-back-up" thing.

 

[Forcegypsy]

I may implent something like your pummeled rules. I don't particularly like the subdual damage rules for d20 anything except super heroic. Your recovery rule looks good at first glance...I'll run it by my players, give it a playtest if we have time, only because if there is ever a boxing match this might work to simulate it, otherwise, I tend to favour ease of play over extra bookkeeping.

One thing to keep in mind, the creatures in d20 Modern are already scaled according to the creature creation rules. Smaller creatures have small Con Larger creatures tend to have Cons in the 18-30+ range. So your tiny creature would probably have a Con of 6 or even lower.

 

[Visceris]

I was thinking adapting the Grim and Gritty combat rules that Ken Hood made to d20 Modern.

 

[buzz]

Seconded

please don't take this the wrong way, but have any of the people complaining about the damage rules actually played a game of D20 Modern yet?

I have to second this. The game has barely been out for two weeks now, and already people are going apes*** about the nonlethal and massive damage rules.

Funny thing is, when COCd20 come out, I remember seeing a bunch of people asking, "Why didn't they make the MD threshold equal to CON? That would make so much more sense!"

I dunno. I'm going to wait until I can play it and see if these rules are actually problematic. *As read*, the rules make sense to me. An untrained combatant isn't going to knock anyone out with one blow, and guns are still lethal no matter how high level you are, yet not *so* lethal that it turns into a game of GURPS.

I'm going to stick by the designers until I'm confronted with a good reason not to.

 

[voradams]

Re: Seconded

I have to second this. The game has barely been out for two weeks now, and already people are going apes*** about the nonlethal and massive damage rules.

I havent played it yet, but the damage rules as they stand strongly discourage me from playing it.

I am a strong believer that a 20th level character can and should be blown away by a shotgun, if he is dumb enough to get shot by one. Traveller T20 does allow this. Starwars and Spycraft allows this (if the attack was a critical). Yet d20 Modern can not. Why?

DC15 is almost impossable not to make at 20th level.

My first thouhgt was to make the DC equal to the damage recieved. Mt second thought was to have a HP loss of damage/10 per round until treated imposed after every massive attack, to represent the after effects of taking a massive hit. After all, if you get hot by a tank shell, you are
not going to continue attacking like nothing happened. This also leads me to some sort of penalty to BAB after taking massive damage.

Look at Band of Brothers. There is a repocussion for every large scale explosion, from deathness, shock, physical and mental trauma. People did not keep charging, they hot the ground or looked for cover. d20 Modern does
not model this well. A d20 CHaracter with enough HP and Fort bonus will give a Nelson like "Ha Ha" and keep on fighing.

Darryl