D20 Modern: Nonlethal Damage

[Radiating Gnome]

Has anyone noticed this in the D20 Modern book yet? It's an interesting variation on the wya subdual damage is handled in D&D.

As I read it, non-lethal damage has no relationship with hit points. When a character suffers non-lethal damage in a single attack that is less than his constitution score, he ignores it completely. If it is greater than his constitution score he must make a Fort save (DC 15) -- if he makes it, he's dazed for a round, and if not, he's knocked out for 1d4+1 rounds.

I do like that this gets away from the tricky accounting involved in tracking regular and subdual damage, it creates some interesting effects. Two first level characters, without feats and with all average stats, would be able t0 punch at each other all day -- even a critical hit would not do enough damage to threaten to knock either out.

I have mixed feelings about this one -- I guess I'll have to see it in action.

Has anyone seen this work? Any reactions to it?

 

[Blacksad]

There has been quite a reaction on this on WotC board, and in the d20 system forum here, before the book was released.

I do not like it, but the fact that you can take a -4 penalty to hit, to deal normal damage, lessen its impact for me.

 

[Jeph]

I do not like it, but the fact that you can take a -4 penalty to hit, to deal normal damage, lessen its impact for me.

This is why two unarmed Normals actually will knock each other out, eventually. However, I still prefer HP/Subdual over HP/Nonlethal, and VP/WP of HP/Subdual.

 

[Ranger REG]

There has been quite a reaction on this on WotC board, and in the d20 system forum here, before the book was released.

I do not like it, but the fact that you can take a -4 penalty to hit, to deal normal damage, lessen its impact for me.

Either that or pick up the Combat Martial Arts feat tree. That should at least allow you to inflict lethal damage at no penalty.

 

[Geoff Watson]

I don't like the non-leathal damage rules. I'd prefer if they used Subdual (as per D&D) damage instead.

Unless the opponent is a total wuss (very low Con), you need to have lots of feats and huge strength (and even then you'll probably need a critical) to knock anyone out with those rules.
Eg: a brawler with the Brawl feat and 18 Strength needs a critical to have any chance of knocking out an average 10 Con person.
It is impossible for an average joe to knock out an average joe, even on a critical.

Geoff.

 

[mythusmage]

A Little Secret for You...

As a species, we're rather anti violence. To hurt another human being requires an abnormal personality, impaired judgement, or training.

So the typical human is a lousy fighter. Taking up arms against another takes a fair amount of provocation, and few of us ever face that sort of "encouragement".

Which means you get a lot of aimless flailing about and half-hearted blows.

This means that drunks are dangerous, their self control has been suppressed. Same thing with psychopaths and sociopaths, who have no real self control. While martial artists, and boxers are trained to actually deal substantial damage. In many jurisdictions boxers are accounted lethal weapons.

To hurt another requires intent. You have to want to. Knowing where to hit helps. Focusing on your goal plays a big part. Getting distracted can ruin your chance to put the other guy down.

True Story: A few days ago I saw a driver try to steal a parking space from another. Driver A was trying to back into the space, driver B tried to sneak in behind him.

I intervened. driver B got all upset. Driver B got out of her car with an aluminum bat in hand. She tried to bluff me. I bluffed back. I won.

After some wrangling she saw things my way, and moved her car. No blows were exchanged. No one was physically harmed. How did I get away with it? I knew she was not about to try swinging that bat on me. If she had she would've found herself face down on the ground waiting for the cops, with a large man restraining her. I know I'm capable of hurting somebody. I could tell she wasn't. She could try to intimidate, but causing harm was a very different thing.

That is what the non-lethal damage rule in d20 Modern is all about, accounting for those who can't or won't (in my case) hurt someone else; which covers the great majority of humanity.

So be assured that the combat rules in d20 Modern are as they should be. If you want your PC to be able to put the smack-down on some clown, take the right Feats and skills and he'll be inflicting concussions to the clods and clowns in the campaign.

 

[Alzrius]

There has been quite a reaction on this on WotC board, and in the d20 system forum here, before the book was released.

I do not like it, but the fact that you can take a -4 penalty to hit, to deal normal damage, lessen its impact for me.

And here I thought I was the only one who went out of his way to make absolutely horrible jokes. Good one there Sad!

 

[Henry]

Re: A Little Secret for You...

As a species, we're rather anti violence. To hurt another human being requires an abnormal personality, impaired judgement, or training.

Y'know, I was about to disagree with you, but I thought about it for a bit, and realized you were right, darn you! Even in a naturally violent "might makes right" society, an external stimulus of "take what you need" applies. On our own, with no weapons training and no natural weapons of our own, we're kittens.

 

[Plane Sailing]

I remember a thread some while ago that had a link to another site which was examining the psychology of killing, including the various methods which armed forces use to train people to be able to kill (notably dehumanizing the opposition)

It included some startlingly low statistics for the number of soldiers in WW2 who apparently fired their weapons with the intent of killing (I forget the figures).

Cheers

 

[Radiating Gnome]

I've had several history and 19th century american lit professors repeat stories about civil war soldiers whose rifles were recovered after battles -- muzzle loaders that had been loaded and reloaded, over and over again, without firing, so that the barrels were stuffed with 6 or 7 charges and miniballs. It was also a problem to get the soldiers to shoot low enough to hit their targets -- very often they would shoot high, unconsciously, and end up shooting harmlessly over the enemy troops.

-rg