D20 Modern or D20 Future?

[Voneth]

www.d20future.com

He He, yeah, that is on my list. Unfortunately, I blew $70 on getting Spyrcraft’s psionic rules. So T20 is going to have to wait. No offense, but since I have Star Wars, Farscape and other d20 SF, I have to cut down for Xmas cash.

Well, there is only so much you can put in the generic d20 Modern Core Rulebook, Voneth, while trying to keep the price at $39.95 (US).

I agree, but I seem to remember getting more out of my Alternity PHB. In theory, one could take the same page count of that book, toss out the ship rules and you could have had magic.

You also have to remember the rulebook will feature not one but three campaign models/setttings, one of which is psionic-heavy (Agents of PSI). Correct me if I'm wrong, but that is the first product I've heard to have three different "default" settings included with the core rulebook.

You also have to remember the rulebook was supposed to feature four campaign settings. There was Urban Arcana, Shadow Chasers, Agents of PSI, and DNA. Two fantasy and two SF. One SF setting got kicked out and the other only has two relevant classes, the Battlesomethingorother and the Telepath. With DND Psi rule, you are pretty much stuck with those classes as is. While I hope the Magic classes are similarly restricted to only two classes and only55 spells as well out of genre fairness, the DND magic system is going to allow those two classes to be much more flexible in their selection of spells by the default design of the two systems.

It is also a product line, so I expect them to do publish supplements, although not as much, but as needed by the customers (plural).

I admit there are limits to what you can do with the printed page, but having only two classes to play with until my “book” comes out. Hmm, that would be like limiting DND casters to their 5th level of advancement until the DM got the other 15 levels of the character chart when he bought Forgotten Realms. It also reminds me of …

*Getting TSR campaigns where most of the page count was taken up with “adjusting the game to fit the milieu” in Dark Sun, Planescape and Spell Jammer, which was one of the reason I left AD&D.
*Having my second thoughts the first $35 I spent to get psionic rules from AEG (my common sense must of left me that day ) as well as another $10 to make DND psionics finally stand on it’s own two legs without needing magic in the picture. (If Thoughts Could Kill).

*The only games that offer a complete psionic rules set right of the box (until D20T this week) was the $40 Judge Dredd game (ouch) and d20 Hell on Earth (which is only a DND spells on a spell point system)

I take a peek at d20 Traveller, but so far it seems that psionic rules get the short end of the stick in the d20 community.

 

[RPGRealms]

He He, yeah, that is on my list. Unfortunately, I blew $70 on getting Spyrcraft’s psionic rules. So T20 is going to have to wait. No offense, but since I have Star Wars, Farscape and other d20 SF, I have to cut down for Xmas cash.

I can sympathize with that!

I take a peek at d20 Traveller, but so far it seems that psionic rules get the short end of the stick in the d20 community.

Well unfortunately we had planned on a bit more for psionics in the main book, but with everything else we had to cram in it, psionics did get shorted a bit. It is a subject that is quite likely to get a supplement of its own though.

 

[tsadkiel]

Then again, I found out that d20 Modern Psi rules are going to be almost identical to DND Psi and have only 55 powers in the basic book. (for a DND mage who bases his spellcasting on one attribute that's not a problem. For DND psions who have to rely on all six attributes, this means that only 5 powers total are really utiltized)

The core rulebook d20 Modern Psion is a Telepath. One attribute used.

 

[Ranger REG]

I agree, but I seem to remember getting more out of my Alternity PHB. In theory, one could take the same page count of that book, toss out the ship rules and you could have had magic.

I wouldn't know. I never did pick up Alternity. But you are referring to the PHB. d20 Modern is going to be one singular core rulebook, not a two-book (or three book) ruleset like Alternity or Dungeons & Dragons.

Besides, we're simply speculating. We don't know what the final product is like.

You also have to remember the rulebook was supposed to feature four campaign settings. There was Urban Arcana, Shadow Chasers, Agents of PSI, and DNA. Two fantasy and two SF. One SF setting got kicked out and the other only has two relevant classes, the Battlesomethingorother and the Telepath. With DND Psi rule, you are pretty much stuck with those classes as is. While I hope the Magic classes are similarly restricted to only two classes and only55 spells as well out of genre fairness, the DND magic system is going to allow those two classes to be much more flexible in their selection of spells by the default design of the two systems.

Then one could hope that d20 Modern psionic rules can convert powers from the Psionic's Handbook.

Again, we can only speculate the difference in detail between the core rulebook and PsiHB.

I admit there are limits to what you can do with the printed page, but having only two classes to play with until my “book” comes out. Hmm, that would be like limiting DND casters to their 5th level of advancement until the DM got the other 15 levels of the character chart when he bought Forgotten Realms.

Obviously what you want is a psionic-heavy rulebook. While Agents of PSI campaign model will be included in d20 Modern along with psionic rules, I honestly don't think this product may be right up your alley at this time.

 

[Morgenstern]

Um... Question for Voneth: What ARE you looking for in a psion system?

I'm not entirely clear on why 55 powers in d20M (or Spycraft's 40+ feats / 27 skills in its first psionic product) is an impediment in your mind? In some settings psionics don't necesarily do 4000 diferent things... It's more important that they do the right things- things that let you accomplish goals.

And why the constant comparisons to D&D Wizards? They've had new spells being thrown at them by third party folks for years. If d20M opens psionics up to third party the way wizards have been, and players insist they get "equal treatment to the mages" you'll get your more than 55 "spells"... and probably the same "Not another firaball/iceball/cheesball spell?" baggage the wizards are laboring under ...

 

[Voneth]

Um... Question for Voneth: What ARE you looking for in a psion system?

I'm not entirely clear on why 55 powers in d20M (or Spycraft's 40+ feats / 27 skills in its first psionic product) is an impediment in your mind? In some settings psionics don't necesarily do 4000 diferent things... It's more important that they do the right things- things that let you accomplish goals.

Because if I don't want magic in my setting (which does 4000 in DND), I need psionics to pick up the work load. With "4000" to pick from, I think I'll find the right thing for the right goal.

And why the constant comparisons to D&D Wizards? They've had new spells being thrown at them by third party folks for years. If d20M opens psionics up to third party the way wizards have been, and players insist they get "equal treatment to the mages" you'll get your more than 55 "spells"... and probably the same "Not another firaball/iceball/cheesball spell?" baggage the wizards are laboring under ... [/B]

My only beef with AEG's psionic rules is more the product delivery, it is a third tier product. i.e. PHB, Spycraft, and then Series Archer. The acutal rules please me, even if I HAVE to use action dice to make the higher rules work.

On equal treatment:
Okay, I try to explain my position again.

1.) d20 Modern is supposed to be a system that supports Fantasy and SF genres.

2.) The two DND versions of the system are not inherently built for them to have equal footing with each other. The 55 powers is a perfect example.

Cleric, Sor, or Wiz, have one attribute to base their powers on. So all 55 powers are available for a choice.

For Psions, they have powers based off all 6 attributes. Between that and their psi points, they become one-trick ponies, especialy when all of their power have fixed damage dice (none of the powers scale with the level of a psion like fireball does for a wizard.)

3.) As written, DND Psioics is an optional system

Psions were developed to not overshadow Wizards in anyway, and Psionics in the PsiHB doesn't stand well on it's own without magic (no healing, no fireball damages)
------
So in essence, it seems a little contradicting to say that psionics gets equal treatment when it's not very modified from the DND model.

Their solution so far is to only offer one class, the Telepath. So we get a whole setting (Agent of Psi) and only one class that is psionic? All I can say is that I hope that Urban Arcana and Shadow Chasers also get only one class each. And if that is the case, it sounds like the whole setting section is really just a paid advertisment/teaser for the setting books. bah! give me more psionic AND magic powers instead.

Originally posted by Ranger REG

Obviously what you want is a psionic-heavy rulebook. While Agents of PSI campaign model will be included in d20 Modern along with psionic rules, I honestly don't think this product may be right up your alley at this time.

Yeah, funny thing is I said that.

I struck d20 Modern off my list last week, mostly because my core ideas for the game would fit a d20 "Future" game and most of the excitement in the forum is over the magical permutations of d20 Modern.

 

[Ranger REG]

Alrighty then, let's move on.

 

[tsadkiel]

For Psions, they have powers based off all 6 attributes.

I'll say it again. One attribute in d20 Modern. Trust me on this.

 

[2WS-Steve]

Going back to the original question, I wouldn't be surprised if modern era games had a wider market appeal than future era ones. Look at the popularity of all the White Wolf main games, Conspiracy X, Delta Green, Dark Matter, and so on. Even Shadowrun and Cyberpunk have more in common with a modern era game than a sci-fi one; all you'd need are some hacking rules and cybernetic rules and I imagine those fit quite nicely into a 160 page hardcover coming out 3 or 6 months after d20 Modern.

Traveller seems to be about the only successful sci-fi game that wasn't based on a license, and WotC already has a sorta decent sci-fi license

 

[Pbartender]

Their solution so far is to only offer one class, the Telepath. So we get a whole setting (Agent of Psi) and only one class that is psionic? All I can say is that I hope that Urban Arcana and Shadow Chasers also get only one class each.

From the Unofficial D20 Modern FAQ on the Wizard's message boards...

There are six basic classes:

• Strong Hero
• Fast Hero
• Tough Hero
• Smart Hero
• Dedicated Hero
• Charismatic Hero

There are twelve advanced classes:

• Soldier, Martial Artist
• Gunslinger, Infiltrator
• Daredevil, Bodyguard
• Field Scientist, Techie
• Field Medic, Investigator
• Personality, Negotiator

Each of the three campaign settings has an additional two specific advanced classes.

• Shadow Chasers: Shadow Hunter / Occultist
• Urban Arcana: Acolyte / Mage
• Agents of Psi: Battle Mind / Telepath

I know that Acolytes and Mages are roughly equivalent to D&D Clerics and Wizards. Telepaths and Battle Minds seem to be analogs of their D&D psionic counterparts. Occultists do not get magic of their own, but can use and create Magical Items. I'm not certain what a Shadow Hunter is, though.