d20 Modern Prestige Classes With 10 Levels?

[jaerdaph]

Okay, I buy a lot of PDF products, especially for d20 Modern. In fact, I probably buy more PDF products a month than I do print products. Lately I've noticed that several publishers are selling prestige classes for d20 Modern that have 10 levels.

Now, the Modern SRD establishes that in d20 Modern, Basic and Advanced classes have 10 levels, and Prestige classes have 5 levels (d20 Modern prestige classes can be found in Urban Arcana).

I buy my PDFs from RPGNow (see my signature ), and customers are allowed the option to leave comments about products they purchase and rate them on a scale of 1 to 5. I try to leave comments for all the PDF products I purchase to help other customers decide and to provide feedback to the publisher. I wouldn't dream of calling my comments reviews, but since there isn't exactly a wealth of full scale reviews available for most PDF products, customers like myself depend on the comments to help them decide. Sometimes the comments I leave are the only ones anyone has to go on.

With that in mind, I have been scoring d20 Modern products with 10-level Prestige classes rather low. I want to be fair, however, since these are only comments I am leaving, not full reviews, so I want to know what others think of 10-level Prestige classes in d20 Modern?

 

[Vigilance]

Not a customer, and I am interested in seeing what other think but...

Well, Im not sure why Urban Arcana should be the end of discussion on the topic.

It sounds like you're saying that because the designers of UA decided to go that way the rest of us have to toe the line.

The only reason it would be bad, imo, to have 10 level PrCs is that you can't max out an advanced class *and* a prestige class in 20 levels.

Other than that, I dont see any reason it would be bad, and I dont consider not being able to max out every class you take a horrible turn of events.

So other than because some designer at WOTC said so, why do you hate 10 level PrCs? And why only in d20M?

Chuck

 

[Turanil]

With that in mind, I have been scoring d20 Modern products with 10-level Prestige classes rather low. I want to be fair, however, since these are only comments I am leaving, not full reviews, so I want to know what others think of 10-level Prestige classes in d20 Modern?

A few days ago I bought two prestige classes (but for D&D, not d20 modern) on rpgnow. I "reviewed" and rated them. Well, concerning d20 modern I don't mind if they are 10 levels rather than 5 levels. I care about content, originality, and usefulness of the class, and also I like to get a nice layout and ilustration. I would probably not rate based on the number of levels, although personally I do prefer 10 levels PrC if I buy a document which is only about one class.

 

[jaerdaph]

So other than because some designer at WOTC said so, why do you hate 10 level PrCs? And why only in d20M?

It's not that I hate them. I just prefer them to be balanced with the Modern SRD Prestige classes AND other third party Prestige classes (like from The Game Mechanics).

 

[Vigilance]

It's not that I hate them. I just prefer them to be balanced with the Modern SRD Prestige classes AND other third party Prestige classes (like from The Game Mechanics).

Well my point is, other than Wizards and the Game Mechanics (who despite being 3rd part publishers *are* the guys who wrote Urban Arcana) 10 level PrCs still seem to be the norm for d20 Modern.

So what I'm saying is, it sounds to me like you're saying that anyone who doesn't conform to the way Stan and Rich would like things designed is going to get a lower score from you.

Stan and Rich are phenomenal designers. But that seems a very arbitrary reason to rate a product lower.

Chuck

 

[The_Universe]

Okay, I buy a lot of PDF products, especially for d20 Modern. In fact, I probably buy more PDF products a month than I do print products. Lately I've noticed that several publishers are selling prestige classes for d20 Modern that have 10 levels.

Now, the Modern SRD establishes that in d20 Modern, Basic and Advanced classes have 10 levels, and Prestige classes have 5 levels (d20 Modern prestige classes can be found in Urban Arcana).

I buy my PDFs from RPGNow (see my signature ), and customers are allowed the option to leave comments about products they purchase and rate them on a scale of 1 to 5. I try to leave comments for all the PDF products I purchase to help other customers decide and to provide feedback to the publisher. I wouldn't dream of calling my comments reviews, but since there isn't exactly a wealth of full scale reviews available for most PDF products, customers like myself depend on the comments to help them decide. Sometimes the comments I leave are the only ones anyone has to go on.

With that in mind, I have been scoring d20 Modern products with 10-level Prestige classes rather low. I want to be fair, however, since these are only comments I am leaving, not full reviews, so I want to know what others think of 10-level Prestige classes in d20 Modern?

I have to agree that rating a class on how many levels it contains is a very arbitrary (and quite frankly poor) way to evaluate a product. The only case in which I could see this making even the slightest bit of sense would be if, because of the requirements of the class, several levels were unuseable.

As it stands, one can begin taking most advanced classes as early as 3rd level, leaving 7 open levels assuming one chose to finish out the class. Obviously, a 5 level prestige class isn't going to cover the rest of the life of a character, either. In this case, you'd have to rate 5 and 10 level classes equally poorly, and rate only 7 level prestige classes well.

However, since part of the whole point of D20 Modern is to allow easy multiclassing for flexible character creation, dinging an otherwise good product because of class levels that may be an *absolute necessity* for one player and a *total waste* for another seems weak.

All IMHO, of course.

 

[jaerdaph]

So what I'm saying is, it sounds to me like you're saying that anyone who doesn't conform to the way Stan and Rich would like things designed is going to get a lower score from you.

It's not that so much as wanting material I buy for d20 Modern to work together relatively seamlessly. But your point and those of everyone here is certainly well taken.

There are also two design schools on creating new Skills for d20 Modern vs. adding new uses to existing Skills and thus avoiding Skill proliferation. The general consensus seems to be against new Skill proliferation.

Anyhow, this is why I asked if I was being fair - I wanted to get a feel for the consensus.

 

[Geoff]

It's not that so much as wanting material I buy for d20 Modern to work together relatively seamlessly. But your point and those of everyone here is certainly well taken.

There are also two design schools on creating new Skills for d20 Modern vs. adding new uses to existing Skills and thus avoiding Skill proliferation. The general consensus seems to be against new Skill proliferation.

Anyhow, this is why I asked if I was being fair - I wanted to get a feel for the consensus.

As a fellow PDF publisher, I'm not going to go into what I think about 5-level versus 10-leve prestige classes. But if you want to leave a lower rated comment or review based upon something you see as a shortcoming, that's your decision. After all, a comment or a review is based on your opinion as you are the one making it.

I think you can leave your lower rated score simply by stating why you rated it as such. If the balance of the content is strong, state that as well.

 

[metabaron]

I have to say that 10 level PrC's provide a great opportunity for me to spot the munchkin when he arrives at my game table.

For someone to attempt to max out at an advanced class *and* a PrC would suggest a lifetime of dedication to a particular class. I recently encountered an 8 level PrC where the entry criteria were nonexistant (you get pressed into it against your will), the first level had no benefits (because you have no training - you are just shoved in at the deep end), and the 8th level was for show. In doing so it very accurately reflected the context of the class (ie. nobody survives level one because its a suicidal class, and if you get to level 8 you get to cause fear amongst your chosen enemies). What mattered was the gaming challenge it provided and, for those who survive, a couple of levels where you get some really unique and useful skill/feat combinations.

 

[HellHound]

Now, the Modern SRD establishes that in d20 Modern, Basic and Advanced classes have 10 levels, and Prestige classes have 5 levels (d20 Modern prestige classes can be found in Urban Arcana).

Meanwhile, the SRD (not modern) established that (fantasy) Prestige Classes have 10 levels. Yet in other products we see Prestige Classes with 3, 5, 7, 12, and 15 level progressions.

Thus, it is *my* opinion that the MSRD has nothing to do with whether a PrC should be restricted to five levels. A PrC should have as many levels as it needs.

wanting material I buy for d20 Modern to work together relatively seamlessly

And somehow, having a class with a different number of levels won't work with classes that have 5 levels? I don't really get this. After all, going back to my previous example, 3 and 15 level prestige classes seem to work fine along with the SRD-standard 10-level prestige classes. How is this different?