d20 Modern - Room for something else...?

[malladin]

Having gotten an initial grip on d20 modern, It appears to me that there is room for a new OGL system that concentrates on the 'lower' end of the dramatic scale.

D&D is noted for struggling with dark fantasy concepts, and d20 modern seems to be very much geared to the cinematic action genre. Is there therefore space in the market for a new open game system that can handle the more 'realistic' feel that many gamers enjoy?

Personally, I believe there is. I don't want to be seen as being massively radical here. I really like d20, its what I play myself. However, I have enjoyed playing other games, such as GURPS and white-wolf storyteller system games. In my mind D&D (and therefore, one presumes, d20 modern) is great at the hugely dramatic and sweeping-scale storyline types of games but struggles to make you feel the gritty threat of a realistic system. As such, I doubt that you could easily create a decent dark fantasy or modern horror game (may be I'm wrong here, has anybody tried this and been completely happy with the results?)

Therefore I think that there is room for a new open game system that concentrates at this dark/low scale.



So, what would such a system look like? I envisage that the system needed will have many 'surface' ideas in common with d20, such as skills and feats, ability scores, but would completely rewrite some of the core concepts.

This would probably mean dropping the d20 itself, which is, IMO, too random for such games.

Hit Points, I think, will also have to be scrapped for this kind of a game. A standard number of wounds is fairly standard in other rpgs.

The class/level advancement system will probably also have to go. This will need replacing with a xp-point spending system. classes with levels mean that character development is rapid and as such a large scale of character development is needed. Having a character increased each session by adding a new level of a skill or a new feat every so often keeps character development flowing, but at a slow pace.

If you drop the class/level advancement, you'll therefore need to replace save and base attack progression, although most other games use skills for their equivalent - I think this can work just as well for a new d20 system derivative.



What do you all think about this idea? Is there room for a new system? Is there a need for a new system? Do you agree with my ideas on how it would work? What alternative suggestions can you make? Perhaps we could make it a web project to create such a system? What other writers and publishers agree with me and/or would be interested in contributing..? Who thinks I'm mad (probably most of you ).

Its all just an idea at the moment, what I want to know is if I'm alone in this, or if I have something worth running with...

Cheerio,

Ben, Malladin's Gate Press

www.malladinsgate.com

 

[danzig138]

Hmmmm

Well, my first thought is that if you drop the d20 mechanic, it isn't really a d20 derivative anymore. If you think you can make a go of it, more power to you, but personally, if I decide to play a game that is more "gritty and realistic", I probably wouldn't even turn to a d20 derivative, since there are already plenty of other game options out there. I'd probably crack out B23 or CoC.

 

[malladin]

Firstly, there's a lot more that defines the d20 system than the rolling of a twenty sided dice. Admittedly it become a bit strange to talk about it being d20 derrived but without the d20 .

I largely agree with you that there are other systems out there that handle this sort of thing, but d20 has grown into a much stronger system through the massive following and its continual development sue to the open licence. By now it must be more widely played than 1st or 2nd edition D&D were (except possibly in the very early days when D&D was all there was ).

The point of this is not to try and make a wodge of cash for me, but to see if others agreed that there is space for a new Open Game system that can grow in the same way that d20 has.

Thanks for the comments.

Ben

 

[Thorin Stoutfoot]

Originally posted by malladin So, what would such a system look like? I envisage that the system needed will have many 'surface' ideas in common with d20, such as skills and feats, ability scores, but would completely rewrite some of the core concepts.
www.malladinsgate.com [/B]

Why not just do what CoC d20 did? Have hit points = con, have an offensive option and a defensive option, and keep everyone at the equivalent of 4th level for Bab and saves. For advancement, if you want gritty realism, don't have any at all! Or give out hero points instead, which can be traded in for re-rolls.

No changes necessary, and you get to keep almost everything in place.

 

[Jeph]

A suggested XP-Point system:

All characters start out with the Base Stats: assign a 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, and 8 to ability scores, with 3 bonus points to split between the scores, HP = Con, +2 to spread between the saves, +1 to put into Base Attack or Base AC, 1 Feat, and 5 + 2x INT score Skill Points (treating all skills as class skills), with no more than 4 points in any single skill. Every session, the GM gives out 3 to 6 XP to each character. They may either save their XP in a 'pool' to buy more powerful abilities later, or use their XP to purchase the below abilities:

9 XP: +1 to 1 ability score
6 XP: +1 Base Attack
6 XP: +1 Base Defense
5 XP: +1 Hit Points
4 XP: +1 feats
3 XP: +1 to 1 save
2 XP: +1 skill points

That just off the top of my head, not sure how it would actually play out.

 

[malladin]

Okay, so there are some ideas about how you can do 'low' given the existing d20 framework, but what I want to know is whether people are truely satisfied by this or if, like me, people don't use d20 for these types of games (perhaps I'm asking this on the wrong site, but I want to know what the d20 community thinks).

My main problem with d20 for these types of campaigns is the scale of character available to you. If you consider the full range of ability score bonuses, skill ranks and dice rolls possible you have a total effective probability range of between about -3 and about +50 (and thats before you start thinking about epic level).

In my mind the key to a successful 'low' or 'dark' rpg is that the players are below typically weaker than their opponents and must use a full range of abilities to meet the challenges of the adventure. To get the atmosphere of such a game right you need to (IMO) have monsters (etc) that will always kill the characters in a straight fight, but to allow the characters the ability to use their skills, etc to level out the playing field. As such the PCs need to be able to rely on their abilities an know that they are not going to be let down at crucial moments. The 'high' games of d20 system, on the other hand (again, IMO), use this randomness to emphasise the drama and excitement amongst the players - all characters need to know that at any moment they might just shoot a duff shot or get caught unawares. This works for these games, because at the end of the day the threat is never really that great, and to die dramatically is often as good an ending for a character as any.

I think that therefore dropping the dice roll down to, say, a d6 and having total roll modifiers between 1 (or sightly lower) and 10. Thus the comeptant character will rarely slip up at the simple tasks, but stretching the success envelope is very difficult. I think that the balance of the system relies on the total modifier range being slightly larger than the dice roll itself, as with d20 and probably most other systems.

I don't think using Con for number of hit points works well for this type of game either. There's too much variety between players - a theoretical working party might have one character who can take 3 times the amount of damage as another member of the party. If you want the realism the teh atmosphere of such games requires, you will want most attacks to threaten death on the first attack, but rarely actually deliver it. If you use the con scale, the attack will either give Mr 6-con no chance or be no threat to Mrs 18-con for three or four attacks. Maybe something like a number + con modifier might work, but I would prefer, for this game, if the amount of damage you could sustain was universal but your ability to resist it was considered in the damage equasion.

For example, if all characters have 10 hit points and a bullet is coming in to do 9 damage, the Mr 6-con takes the hit for something like 10 damage and is knocked out, but Mr's 18-Con takes, say, 6 damage and lives another round, at least. (Please note that the numbers here are speculative, based on a smaller range of ability scores).

 

[Desdichado]

d20 Modern is actually (IMO) considerably less "cinematic" (by which I mean over the top action) than D&D. I find it to be good middle ground between the certain death or insanity proposition of d20 Call of Cthulhu and D&D.

 

[malladin]

Good point, Joshua. My concern is that it's still too far towards D&D than is required for most 'low' games. Cthulu benefits from the d20 system with the characters being so weak they are going to only be lucky if they survive... Nasty, I know, but this is the style of Cthulu games, and always has been well before d20 came along.

The type of game I envisage requires the players to be competant but out-gunned. The atmosphere of such games relies on the players having to club together and work to the absolute best of their abilities to pull through. Cthulu has a bit of this to it, but at the end of the day you can do everything rigjht and still die or lose your mind.

 

[Desdichado]

Good point, Joshua. My concern is that it's still too far towards D&D than is required for most 'low' games. Cthulu benefits from the d20 system with the characters being so weak they are going to only be lucky if they survive... Nasty, I know, but this is the style of Cthulu games, and always has been well before d20 came along.

The type of game I envisage requires the players to be competant but out-gunned. The atmosphere of such games relies on the players having to club together and work to the absolute best of their abilities to pull through. Cthulu has a bit of this to it, but at the end of the day you can do everything rigjht and still die or lose your mind.

I don't see how that's a function of the game mechanics, though. That can still happen in D&D games very easily, which is among the most "over-the-top" games in existence. You've got 15th level characters who think they can lay the smack-down on whatever they see? What happens when the get mixed up in the plot of HD-advanced balors who take a grim view to their meddling? You better believe those 15th level characters will be competent but out-gunned and they have to pull together and work their best to pull through that episode.

It's not a feature of the system, it's a feature of the GM that makes that happen. Personally, I'm a fan of the low magic/low fantasy genre, but I still find CoC to be way too lethal. Give me d20 Modern converted to run fantasy (and really, all you have to do is remove a few modern skills and feats and maybe replace them with some others from D&D, and then keep advancement slow) and I can create exactly the kind of game you describe. In fact, that's exactly the kind of game I'm interested in running.