d20 Modern Tonfa?

[takyris]

Alright, d20 Modern folks, help me out. While I'm usually a stanch defender of the Rules as Writ, I've got an issue.

The Tonfa.

What's the point?

I know, I know -- free to deal lethal or nonlethal. But really, let's be honest here -- unless we're playing "MDT or Current Hit Points", what's the use of a Tonfa for knocking people out in a friendly, non-harmful manner?

Unless you've got combat feats, you will never be using a tonfa to knock somebody out. So let's go with a combat person:

16 Strength.

Level One: Strong1
Talent: Melee Smash
Feat: Power Attack
Feat: Weapon Focus

I attack at +5 for 1d4+4 damage, assuming I'm using it with two hands. I can choose to Power Attack and attack at +4 for 1d4+5.

Level Two: Strong2
Feat: Nothing else directly adds to my attack or damage capability

I attack at +6 for 1d4+4, using it with two hands. Or I an Power Attack and attack at +4 for 1d4+6.

Level Three: Strong3
Feat: Nothing that helps
Talent: Improved Melee Smash

I can attack at +7 for 1d4+5, and I can Power attack all the way for +4 to hit, 1d4+8.

Level Four: Soldier1
Talent: Weapon Focus, which I already have

No change, since my BAB doesn't increase

Level Five: Soldier2
Talent: Weapon Specialization, Tonfa

I can attack at +8 for 1d4+7, and I can Power Attack all the way for +4 to hit, 1d4+11

So: Before going the Soldier route, I can get an average of 7 damage if attacking normally, or 10 if I Power Attack -- chances of hitting go down, however, so whether this is a net gain or not depends on my opponent's Defense and MDT. However, since my maximum damage is 12, I'm never going to be a threat for a tough guy, anyway.

After going the soldier route, I can get my damage up to an average of 13 and as high as 15, but at what cost? I'm specializing in the Tonfa!

By comparison, my character could have taken Combat Martial Arts and, at just third level, have:

1 Combat Martial Arts
1 Brawl
3 Streetfighting
Str1: Melee Smash
Str2: Weapon Focus: Unarmed Strike
Str3: Improved Melee Smash

Using Combat Martial Arts, I can do Lethal or Nonlethal, and I'll hit, at third level, for 1d4 +3 Strength +2 Smash +1d4 Streetfighting, or 2d4+5 -- And heck, if I played with Occupations, I could get Brawl through that and take Power Attack, upping my damage even beyond that.

By the time the Tonfa begins to be useable and functional as a "knock people out" weapon, you've invested so much specialization into it that you could just as easily be just as good at something a lot more useful for less -- like martial arts, which can never be disarmed, and which lets you add Streetfighting to the damage. (I am specifically using the RAW for Brawl and CMA, which do not stack according to the official rules. In my games, however, I usually have them stack partially -- you always get a +1 to hit, you never provoke an Attack of Opportunity, and you can do 1d4 lethal or 1d6 nonlethal.)

So, aside from roleplaying, why would anyone ever choose to use a tonfa? I checked the errata, I checked the FAQ, and I've got nothing. No "a character can use the tonfa to be considered armed, but still use Brawl or Improved Brawl for purposes of determining nonlethal damage". No "Oops, that's an errata, the tonfa should be considered Small, so that it can be concealed more easily than a baseball bat-club and used with Streetfighting". No "the tonfa also protects the wielder's wrist, giving him a +1 Dodge (or Shield, per Urban Arcana) bonus to Defense when used".

Thoughts?

 

[Spatula]

Some of your numbers are slightly off, although that doesn't invalidate your points. Using a tonfa in two hands, 16 STR, Melee Smash gives you 1d4+5 damage (3+1.5+1 rounded down).

The main problem isn't so much with the tonfa as it is with non-lethal damage being a useless option for low-level characters. Like you'd never use a sap unless you've invested a similar amount of specialization into it, or you'd never use rubber bullets unless you have Double Tap or Burst Fire.

 

[Vigilance]

Well, the Tonfa gets some benefits I feel it would have in the real world in its Blood and Fists write-up, including some bonuses to blocking.

However, that book is only for fast-boy jocking wannabes

Chuck

 

[takyris]

Some of your numbers are slightly off, although that doesn't invalidate your points. Using a tonfa in two hands, 16 STR, Melee Smash gives you 1d4+5 damage (3+1.5+1 rounded down).

The main problem isn't so much with the tonfa as it is with non-lethal damage being a useless option for low-level characters. Like you'd never use a sap unless you've invested a similar amount of specialization into it, or you'd never use rubber bullets unless you have Double Tap or Burst Fire.

Hey, Spatula: Totally nailed me on getting the numbers wrong. I initially wrote it for one-handed use, but I was trying to be fair to the Tonfa, so I said, "Okay, minmaxing, you CAN use it with two hands" and then tried to go back and correct it. Apparently I only got about half of 'em.

Thing is, though, I don't think non-lethal damage IS useless. It's just useless HERE. I can make a 4th-level hero who does a TON of nonlethal damage (the usual Improved Brawl + Improved Melee Smash + Streetfighting dude, who ends up doing 1d8+1d4+5, assuming a 16 Strength). Give him Power Attack, charging, or a buddy who can flank, and you're looking at someone who can dish out an average of 12 (enough to get Average Guy) and as much as 17 (enough to get anyone who isn't dedicated to durability, like a Tough hero with DR or someone with Improved MDT). I am, for my own part, okay with nonlethal damage ordinarily taking awhile to get to the point where you're really gonna get somebody. I'm just not okay with the fact that a Martial Artist or Brawler seems to be, level for level, better at it than somebody with the weapon whose special quality is "can do nonlethal damage without -4 penalty". I'd like to see SOME weapon that, whatever its other disadvantages, is designed to give some nonlethal power to people who haven't sunk a lot of feats into nonlethal damage. The tonfa is most definitely NOT that weapon.

(And failing that, I'd like the popular MDT-or-Current HP to be made official, because that's the only time a tonfa is going to be of use to a non-feat-tricked-out character -- and the feat-tricked-out-character will be using a better weapon.)

 

[Spatula]

The tonfa is most definitely NOT that weapon.

Nor the sap, which is kinda funny, since that's what the sap should be good for...

Perhaps characters should get the benefit of Knockout Punch when using a melee weapon to deal non-lethal damage (first attack vs flatfooted opponent is automatically a crit). That way it might actually be possible for a non-brawler/MA to knock someone out if a weapon (or improvised weapon) is handy and the jump can be gotten on the target. Since a character would be at -4 to attack when dealing non-lethal damage with a normal weapon, the tonfa/sap becomes a bit more handy to have.

Although the MDT-or-HP option accomplishes that just as well I suppose.

 

[Vigilance]

Nor the sap, which is kinda funny, since that's what the sap should be good for...

There's two obvious solutions here:

1) Bring back subdual damage. Nonlethal damage just doesn't work for me and this discussion has really proved it. Yes, you can make a character who can get something done with nonlethal damage if you are willing to invest about six feats.

In reality such attacks are fairly easy to come by and the line betweeen lethal and nonlethal is pretty blurred. Look at Boxing. I'd call boxing with gloves nonlethal damage but boxers can and do die.

Subdual damage models this dynamic *much* better than nonlethal damage.

2) Give the tonfa some defensive abilities. The weapon has many fine defensive qualities in the real world including the ability to block and break swords.

There's a reason why kenjutsu masters won't practice against bo, jo or tonfa unless using a boken. A wooden weapon will break or bend to the point of uselessness a metal weapon every time.

In my home campaign I use both of these rules.

Sometimes tacky, changing rules *is* the way to go. Nothing is perfect. Why the dogma?

Chuck

 

[takyris]

There's two obvious solutions here:

1) Bring back subdual damage. Nonlethal damage just doesn't work for me and this discussion has really proved it. Yes, you can make a character who can get something done with nonlethal damage if you are willing to invest about six feats.

Not a huge point of interest for me. The idea of successfully drubbing somebody to the point of unconsciousness, bit by bit, without ever putting them in danger of real injury, is just about as silly as a tonfa that doesn't do what it's supposed to do.

I wouldn't mind playing in a campaign that used subdual damage, but I'm not going to initiate it myself. It pretty much breaks the brawl chain entirely, and I don't entirely hate the brawl chain. As for six feats... Brawl, Improved Brawl, Streetfighting, Power Attack. That's all you really need. As I said, I'm not against the concept of nonlethal damage. I'm annoyed with the tonfa for not really improving it in any meaningful way, since the purpose of it SEEMS to be to make it easier for people with less training to do.

In reality such attacks are fairly easy to come by and the line betweeen lethal and nonlethal is pretty blurred. Look at Boxing. I'd call boxing with gloves nonlethal damage but boxers can and do die.

Definitely. That's why I don't love subdual damage. I like nonlethal for its ideas of knockout capability, which fits in well with boxing, versus whittling down by actually doing damage, which can also fit in well with boxing. I can see, by the core rules, a pair of boxers having an interesting fight, making the choice to use Improved Brawl to get past their opponent's MDT or making the choice to slowly and steadily beat their opponent down through normal damage. Even by the core rules, a little Combat Martial Arts will help, since you'd be able to make attacks of opportunity on the guy punching you, even if you couldn't combine your CMA with your brawling feats.

Subdual damage models this dynamic *much* better than nonlethal damage.

Respectfully disagree.

2) Give the tonfa some defensive abilities. The weapon has many fine defensive qualities in the real world including the ability to block and break swords.

I'm leaning more towards that. I'd prefer that it come from WotC, but I'd probably house-rule it at some point if it came up. Since weapons don't generally get damaged from hitting by the core rules, I wouldn't add that in as a free Tonfa ability, but I'd definitely add a Dodge bonus to Defense.

There's a reason why kenjutsu masters won't practice against bo, jo or tonfa unless using a boken. A wooden weapon will break or bend to the point of uselessness a metal weapon every time.

My poor buddy who practiced against a tree with his brand-new sais showed me the same thing.

Sometimes tacky, changing rules *is* the way to go. Nothing is perfect. Why the dogma?

1) Portability. Not a big factor with me, frankly, but I don't like having to make so many rule changes that a character concept doesn't really function if moved into a different game.

2) Balance. If you make Tonfas small simple weapons that do 1d8, 19-20/x2, and can do Nonlethal for free, everyone in the world is going to want one. That's an obvious exaggeration, but I was hoping to get word from team WotC on why the tonfa is less impressive than the club, when the tonfa is closer to being a manufactured weapon (even if it was a mill handle at some point).

3) I do change the rules. I just don't casually change all of them. I didn't start this thread in order to tell everyone that I was giving up on nonlethal damage. I started the thread to ask if there'd been official changes to the tonfa, and, if not, what popular house rules seemed balance. And, no offense intended, but as someone who practices martial arts, I thought that the core rules handled the abstract combat mechanics well enough that I didn't see a need for a rules expansion. This isn't a particular slam on you, Chuck. I didn't buy the D&D splatbooks, either. Paying more money for something that often turns out to be a power creep enabler just causes too much trouble in my games.

Suggesting that my lack of enthusiasm for sweeping game changes in order to fix one not-great weapon is "dogma" is somewhat suspect, as assertions go.

 

[Vigilance]

I wasn't suggesting sweeping changes, and the change I suggested even comes from team WOTC so you don't have to sully your hands with 3rd party mechanics writers like me

Keep in mind that subdual damage is partially real, so it can kill you. Again its really close to what you're asking for. At any rate, its closer than nonlethal damage.

EDIT: Ok... having consulted the 3.0 PHB, which is what I thought I was using, I now have no idea where this rule comes from. However, here's what I do:

Subdual damage is recorded but not subtracted from your HP (as in 3.5). If your HP reaches 0 due to subdual damage you make a Fort save (DC 15) or you begin dying normally and all subdual damage is recorded as real damage.

If you make the save you're unconscious and will wake up in 2-5 rounds. When you wake up 75% of subdual damage fades, 25% is real.

Also, I have used the Brawl chain in my home game, which uses subdual damage, without change and it seems to work pretty well. Just replace subdual damage with nonlethal damage.

I even still use the knockout blows, giving players the ability to both wear someone down and land that one big bomb to knock someone out.

Chuck

PS

Also, I'd like to point out that you have a serious misconception about what most 3rd party writers do (at least me). I didn't change the tonfa at all in Blood and Fists, just worked it into new rules (I certainly didn't give it any munchking dream abilities like you suggested).

I did not invalidate or change a single rule in any of my d20 Modern books, just provided new ones to fill in the gaps.

(This is to the best of my recollection I'm sure now someone will dig a rule that I changed out of one of my books to show me up lol).

So let's amend that to say I try not to alter existing rules, just add new ones.

 

[Vigilance]

Suggesting that my lack of enthusiasm for sweeping game changes in order to fix one not-great weapon is "dogma" is somewhat suspect, as assertions go.

Just had to address this since I am in quasi-rant mode lol.

First, I am not suggesting sweeping changes. Im suggesting swapping out the nonlethal combat damage rules in d20 for those in d20 Modern. Having done this it's fairly easy to make work.

Secondly, it is decidedly NOT just the tonfa that is at issue here. Brawling, boxing with protective gear, tonfa, saps, and a whole host of weapons or tactics do not work in the rules as written.

Chuck

 

[takyris]

Hey Chuck,

I'd consider adding subdual damage a sweeping change, regardless of who it comes from. My concern would be that if you add subdual damage, Knockout Punch and Friends get extremely powerful. I was under the impression that the reason it's relatively easy to get unarmed nonlethal damage up there with just a few feats is that there's no long-term benefit to doing lots of damage. The damage has to be high enough to trigger their MDT check, but it doesn't stay with the person after that. If it DOES stay with the person, then suddenly you've got these feats that let people do a massive amount of damage to things, with the caveats "Doesn't work on oozes, constructs, or undead, and may provoke an AoO". Since my games are low-magic, oozes and constructs and undead are somewhat rare.

The rule you're using MIGHT be, in modified form, from 2E. I recall subdual damage working like that in 2E.

As for my statements about third-party content creators:

1) The splatbooks were by WotC, not third-party people, and I didn't buy those. I'm not trying to slam third-party people. I'm just not interested in power creep in general, regardless of the source.

2) You defend yourself by claiming that you didn't do anything to change the tonfa, but you're the one who turned this from a discussion of one weapon into a discussion of the overall rules, with the "why the dogma?" comment. Actually, correction, Spatula started the topic change, but you moved into "replace nonlethal with subdual" as a way to fix the tonfa. I respect that different gamers have different needs. After making my initial point quite awhile ago, I haven't gone into "Blood and XXXX" threads and said "Yes, but the best thing to do would be to stick with the core rules." To do so would be somewhat rude to the gamers who enjoy your products. My followup post specifically said that I was happy with nonlethal in general and was only looking for a fix for the tonfa, not a change to the overall nonlethal rules, since, in my initial post, I did not specifically say that I was only attacking the tonfa, and not all nonlethal rules.

3) "Im suggesting swapping out the nonlethal combat damage rules in d20 for those in d20 Modern." Sorry, this didn't parse for me. Usually, swapping X out for Y means that you stop using X and start using Y. You seem to be implying the reverse, however.

4) "Secondly, it is decidedly NOT just the tonfa that is at issue here. Brawling, boxing with protective gear, tonfa, saps, and a whole host of weapons or tactics do not work in the rules as written." That's an opinion, not a fact. Brawling works for me just fine. Given the abstract nature of combat, boxing gloves can be flavor text -- or, if you choose, you can say that you do not provoke an AoO while punching with boxing gloves, and that they add +2 damage to any nonlethal strike delivered from boxing gloves. Given that boxing gloves aren't even listed in the core book, it's not a huge change to add them in with those special rules. I agree completely on the sap and tonfa, but that's a problem that can be corrected on an item-by-item basis. It can also be corrected by larger changes, including adding the subdual damage mechanic, but I haven't seen it demonstrated that it's necessary to do so. And, really, any comment that sweeping usually ends up turning into a "kind of game you run" discussion, which really doesn't have much to do with my original "help me fix the tonfa" question.

5) You say, "I didn't change the tonfa at all in Blood and Fists", which seems to stand in direct contradiction to your statement that "...the Tonfa gets some benefits I feel it would have in the real world in its Blood and Fists write-up". Having not read Blood and Fist, I have no idea if the benefits you added ONLY apply to your new rules or not (if you added blocking as a skill, and a tonfa gave you a bonus to that skill, and nothing else, frex), but it initially seemed odd. And, for the record, I'm not averse to changes to the tonfa. That was kind of why I asked.

Ideally, there'd be something official from WotC, because yes, sorry, that's my baseline for official, you've gotten me to admit it, and I'm sorry if it hurts your feelings. This thread wasn't an attack on third-party publishers, but apparently I've tripped your radar as someone who generally only buys the core books, and I feel a bit like you're trying to hijack the thread.