d20 Modern Wealth problem?

[Mistwell]

Fair enough. I wouldn't mind seeing a workable and easy dollar-splitting rule, so that PCs can all get the same dollars from a reward, and convert that into wealth based on its relaive value to those player's. Let me know how it goes.

 

[DanMcS]

Your also saying, unless I am mistaken, the wealth system accounts for installment payments by reducing the wealth score. Or to state it another way, the reduction in wealth resulting from large purchases represents paying the instalments. No problem there either.

What I dont like is that purchasing a house works much differently then buying any other very expensive item.

I think it makes sense though. The character's initial wealth score (2d4+1 (if profession >0) + occupation bonus) includes the default assumption that the character is living somewhere and paying rent.

If he buys a house, the DC cost for that represents the down payment, AND the hit to his buying power due to house payments, insurance et al, being higher than rent.

On the other hand, a car isn't a default assumption, so the DC cost appears pretty high. But that DC represents both the down payment, AND the full monthly payment, normal operating costs, and insurance, rather than just the INCREASE in the monthly payment like the transition from rent->house. It's a much bigger hit to the buying power than just going from an apartment to a house.

It works for me, because IRL, including payments, insurance, gas, and all that, my car is pretty much on par or a little more expensive than my apartment + monthly bills. For many people about my age, it's a little more expensive to move into a house compared to rent, but better over the long term because you own it, so the hit to my 'wealth' of buying a home vs staying in my apartment would pretty much be equivalent to buying a car versus having none.

The house v car thing makes sense to me. What doesn't make sense is that a big corporation with a 100 wealth can only buy 100 guns

 

[DanMcS]

If you really want guns to be cheap... make them cheap. Could someone in the know from the US possibly post template purchase DC's for various gun types? (ie pistol, rifle, AR etc) Then we can adjust the DC for the various models on our own (based off the differences already within the categories).

Got home, got my reference materials.
Sample Pistols
(Name, actual price in dollars, DC that translates to, DC in d20 Modern list)
Beretta 92F $771 =17, listed 16
Colt Double Eagle discontinued 1997, priced as Colt 1991 stainless:$800 =17, listed 16
Colt M1911 $645 =16, listed 15
.45 Derringer $350 =14, listed 14
Desert Eagle $1200 =18, listed 18
Glock 17 $600 =16, listed 18
Glock 20 $700 =17, listed 18

So it looks like your template 22s will go DC 14; .357 or .32 pistols will go for DC 15; 9mm or .45s (the colt 1911 or glock 17) will go for about DC 16; 10mm for 17 (glock 20); the big hand cannons (Desert eagle .50) for 18. Auto-capability adds two points, low capacity (derringers) subtracts two-ish, sometimes 1.

Ammo should be cheaper, subtract a point from all the costs. (I bought a box of 50 9mm for about 10 bucks on sunday, which is DC 3, but we'll give them the benefit of the doubt.)

The prices in the book are close enough for the game I'd say, but not exact with the chart on p204; what variations exist are probably just different sources for the d20modern guys' prices.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

How do you determine opponent gear?

I played ALTERNITY, and I had a problem with technology creep. Eg the PCs would take the best tech off of the bad guys' corpses, and once or twice stole an entire spaceship from them.

Sometimes I couldn't use the excuse that their special ammunition is in limited supply, either.

 

[Mistwell]

How do you determine opponent gear?

I played ALTERNITY, and I had a problem with technology creep. Eg the PCs would take the best tech off of the bad guys' corpses, and once or twice stole an entire spaceship from them.

Sometimes I couldn't use the excuse that their special ammunition is in limited supply, either.

So far this is the most difficult portion of the rules I've had to deal with. I have no idea how to determine gear, other than to use the guidelines provided by the listed ordinary characters (which isn't all that helpful).

You could go through the arduous task of calculating average total wealth for the NPC, then buying equipment to the point where your wealth reduces down to the current total wealth number listed for that CR on page 204. However I found calculating average total wealth was a lengthy process, and even that was by way of using an excel spreadsheet.

 

[Merova]

Digital Burn

. . . I had a problem with technology creep. Eg the PCs would take the best tech off of the bad guys' corpses, and once or twice stole an entire spaceship from them.

Hi all!

This problem came up in a Digital Burn game that I just played in. The GM ran an intro game based on the Shadowrun combat scenario "Food Fight" to help the new-to-d20 folks learn the game. The scenario involves a mindless (but fun) "shoot out" at the local convenience store with a bunch of gangers.

Well, the fight finishes, the group runs outside before the cops arrive. Three unattended street bikes sporting gang colors, identical to those on our now deceased opponents, wait outside. We nab two of them and split.

Later, we decide to sell one. Wealth DC=26. Selling it illegally, Wealth = 20 (-3 for selling, -3 for illegal.) Ca-ching!!!

It turns out that we might make a better "living" as carjackers than "freelance special operatives."

I don't really see this as a major problem in the d20 Modern base settings, but in a "cyberpunk" setting? I don't know, do you think the PCs will have a problem with breaking the law?

Thanks for reading.

---Merova

 

[Petrosian]

But therein lies the point... crime does pay.

this is not a welth problem as much as a campaign issue.

Why doesn't everyone steal bikes and resell them?

Two answers...

first. the market does not give you that much back as it is hard to find people willing to buy stolen bikes and especially gang bikes. They pay very little. If the Gm has an open market on stolen goods setup in his game, thats fine. If not, then it will take time.

Second, stealing bikes and selling them is illegal. These not so nice mean with guns called THE LAW will be looking for people that steal bikes and sell them. The criminals you sell them to may well be watched by these same LAWMEN or might be undercover lawmen themselves.

Taking the goblins pouch and selling his spear in town for a few coppers might sit very well in an uncivilized fantasy/frontier setting but it seems like there are plenty of circumstantial forces working against it in a modern setting.

When is the last time you saw Buffy, the Equalizer or James Bond in a pawn shop dickering for cash money over the wondergun they took off their latest bad guy?

 

[Petrosian]

My thoughts on the wealth system are...

it is intended to be an abstract way of answering purchase issues for games in genres where you do not typically see the heroes dealing with precise economics. These genres treat money as a secondary or even inconsequential issue which only rears its ugly heads to drive our hero into a situation. The game is not about making money.

For this purpose, it seems OK.

It seems that if you want to make money and resources an important element of the game, enough to design major chunks of the character's abilities to maximize the wealth and to use the wealth to make equipment a major player in game power... then you are stepping out of those genres and will need to develop a more robust, more precise wealth system, in DND, wealth is an integral part of game design and balance. In DND you count and account for every copper.

it looks to me like the M20 wealth system is designed with it being used, not hoarded. it seems they would expect a character's wealth to fluctuate quite a bit and stay relatively dunamic as he spends and sells and so on.

 

[CharlesRyan]

Selling stolen stuff

Three unattended street bikes sporting gang colors, identical to those on our now deceased opponents, wait outside. We nab two of them and split.

Later, we decide to sell one. Wealth DC=26. Selling it illegally, Wealth = 20 (-3 for selling, -3 for illegal.) Ca-ching!!!

Remember that when you sell something, you do not gain a Wealth bonus equal to the sale value of the item--rather, you gain the same amount of Wealth as you would lose if you bought something at that purchase DC. (See page 94.)
So, in this case, let's say your Wealth bonus before the sale was 6. To buy something with a purchase DC of 20, you'd lose 1d6+1 Wealth. Therefore, to sell something with a sale value of 20, you gain 1d6+1 Wealth. In this case, your Wealth will go up (with an average roll) to 11.

Now you steal another bike, and sell it. With your Wealth at 11, you gain 2 Wealth for the sale, increasing it to 13. A third theft, and your Wealth goes up to 15. When your Wealth hits 20, you're only gaining 1 point per theft.

Yes, you can make money by continually stealing expensive items and selling them illegally. Indeed, maybe this would make a fine basis for a cat-burgaler style campaign. But it's probably not worth it, in the long run, for characters who have better things to do.

 

[DanMcS]

What I liked with the license rule was that, for example, getting a driver license take only one day. Even supposing the character don't need to take driving lessons, that's a bit fast.

Nah. If you're over 18, you go to the office (it's open every day), pay the money, get the eye exam, take the test- about two hours. That's assuming you're unlicensed. If you already have a driver's license, it's 10 minutes to renew All that doesn't count standing in line, which could easily take you over a week...