d20, OGL, and software licensing

[doctorjeff98]

I am a software programmer specializing in FREE online RPG tools for players and GM's. I have been going over and over the www.wizards.com site all night and the archives of the ogc mailing lists. My current understanding is that the d20 logo CANNOT be used for software, so I'll just forget about it. However, the Open Game License explicitly mentions software, so as long as I only use OGL content and don't use the d20 logo that I MIGHT be okay. Finally, the contents of the System Reference Document (SRD) are covered under the OGL. Since the SRD contains the main lists of treasures/magic/items/etc. as long as I don't include the character/experience info (which is EXPLICITLY FORBIDDEN in multiple places on the website) I should be okay as long as I include the license.

Does this sound right to everyone (or anyone)?

Thanks,
Jeffrey A. Mills, DVM
doctorjeff98@msn.com
www.DimensionsGameSoftware.com
A comprehensive set of online RPG tools for players and GM's as well as other no hassles online games.

 

[kingpaul]

I am a software programmer specializing in FREE online RPG tools for players and GM's. I have been going over and over the www.wizards.com site all night and the archives of the ogc mailing lists. My current understanding is that the d20 logo CANNOT be used for software, so I'll just forget about it.

Actually, PCGen does use the d20 logo.

However, the Open Game License explicitly mentions software, so as long as I only use OGL content and don't use the d20 logo that I MIGHT be okay.

It does? Where? I just went to the OGL and read it again, thinking that maybe WotC updated it. I can't find any mention of software in the license. Would you mind quoting, and giving the location, of where you found software explicitly mentioned?

Finally, the contents of the System Reference Document (SRD) are covered under the OGL.

This is correct

Since the SRD contains the main lists of treasures/magic/items/etc. as long as I don't include the character/experience info (which is EXPLICITLY FORBIDDEN in multiple places on the website) I should be okay as long as I include the license.

Ummm...character creation and the effects of gaining experience are not explicitly forbidden by the OGL; just look at Everquest, as on example. It is an OGL covered work, but not d20, and it includes the character creation.

It appears that you are confusing the OGL with the d20 System License/d20 System Guide. To use the d20 logo, you have to follow the License and Guide, and one aspect of that is to follow the OGL.

 

[doctorjeff98]

>It does? Where? I just went to the OGL and read it again, >thinking that maybe WotC updated it. I can't find any mention of >software in the license. Would you mind quoting, and giving the >location, of where you found software explicitly mentioned?

********************
Here is a quote from the Open Game License Frequently Asked Questions...not directly from the OLG itself:

"Q: Is Open Game Content limited to just "the game mechanic"?
A: No. The definition of Open Game Content also provides for "any additional content clearly identified as Open Game Content." You can use the Open Game License for any kind of material you wish to distribute using the terms of the License, including fiction, artwork, maps, computer software, etc."

So it seems the software is explicitly OK under the OGL.



*********************
Here is a quote from the d20 System Guide...not directly from the Trademark usage agreement, however, the agreement says that the user agress to the d20 Guide

"Restricted Trademark Use:

Except as described in the sections titled "Trademark Use in Marketing" and "Mandatory Trademark Use", you may not use the Dungeons & Dragons, d20 Modern, or Wizards of the Coast trademarks in advertising or in any marketing in support of the Covered Product, or in any other use in conjunction with a Covered Product.

You may not use the d20 System License or the d20 System Logo in conjunction with any product that meets the definition of an "Interactive Game" as defined in this Guide.
"

So it seems that d20 logo use is explicitly NOT OK to use in software as an 'Interactive Game' is defined very broadly as "a piece of computer gaming software that is designed to accept inputs from human players or their agents, and use rules to resolve the success or failure of those inputs, and return some indication of the results of those inputs to the users."

Finally, I'm not familiar with PC GEN, but it seems like if it is software it should not use the logo without express permission and it should not use character information as it is not listed in the SRD and this quote from the d20 Gudie seems to forbid it (obviously they want people to have to buy they're Player's Handbook)

"Mandatory Restrictions:

No Covered Product may contain rules or instructions of any kind that:

· Describe a process for Creating a Character
· Describe a process for Applying the Effects of Experience to a Character
"




I guess other than to provide the requested quotes, my question is just....Is it OK to use the info from the SRD in a software program if I don't use the logo and if I mark the content as OGL and provide the license to end users?

 

[BPIJonathan]

The PCGen team has special permission from WotC to use the d20 logo.

 

[Xeno]

PCGen has WotC's specific blessings, as they complied with all of WotC's requests (removed all Intellectuiall Property, random rolling, etc etc).

Once all codnitions and criteria were met, and WotC was happy, then things got re-added back on a case by case basis, with WotC's blessing.

It's WotC's license to interpret and apply as they see fit.

Xeno.

 

[Mynex]

Jeff,

According to the interpretation handed to us at PCGen (Prior to any agreements) from WotC, 'interactive game' constitutes anything that would determine a success or failure.

Success or failure covers randomnly determining the following; stats, initiative, damage, saving throws. Nor can you describe the process of character creation or the effects of gaining experience.

It's a bit unclear, yes. *Mynex's Understatement of the day*

Contact Anthony Valterra or Andrew Smith at WotC and they are perfectly willing to answer any questions about these things, they have for a number of softwares.

 

[kingpaul]

I've been asked to post this by PCGen folks who can't seem to access the ENWorld boards:

Barak
Speaking of PCGen prior to the agreement with WotC:

We could use the D20 Logo because:

1. we did not determine success or failure (thus removal of random generation of stats, gold, experience tracking, etc)
2. we did not describe the application of experience or leveling up. When you added a level, the program did not say "choose a feat now" or "choose more skills now". Once you added a level, you could do eveything necessary, but we did not tell you how to do it.

Now, with the agreement, we can basically do the two above verboten things by special agreement with WotC AND maintain the logo.

Emily Smirle
Here is a quote from the d20 System Guide...not directly from the
Trademark usage agreement, however, the agreement says that the user
agress to the d20 Guide

"Restricted Trademark Use:

Except as described in the sections titled "Trademark Use in Marketing" and "Mandatory Trademark Use", you may not use the Dungeons & Dragons, d20 Modern, or Wizards of the Coast trademarks in advertising or in any marketing in support of the Covered Product, or in any other use in conjunction with a Covered Product.

You may not use the d20 System License or the d20 System Logo in conjunction with any product that meets the definition of an
"Interactive Game" as defined in this Guide.

PCGen has recieved specific permision to perform some functions that would otherwise define PCGen as an "Interactive Game"; in other words, PCGen is under a custom licence based largely on the D20 one but with specific expansions, granted specifically to PCGen by Wizards of the Coast.

<quote>
I guess other than to provide the requested quotes, my question is just....Is it OK to use the info from the SRD in a software program if I don't use the logo and if I mark the content as OGL and provide the license to end users?
</quote>

Short answer: It Depends.

Long answer: if your program is Open Source, absolutely. If it's not Open Source then all the SRD data has to be in human readable files (XML tables and other formatted-yet-plain-text databases are fine. A propritary database format probably is not. Check with a lawyer).

To use PCGen as an example, all the data from the SRD is in separate, plain-text files which must be unzipped to use the program.

 

[doctorjeff98]

<quote>
I guess other than to provide the requested quotes, my question is just....Is it OK to use the info from the SRD in a software program if I don't use the logo and if I mark the content as OGL and provide the license to end users?
</quote>

Short answer: It Depends.

Long answer: if your program is Open Source, absolutely. If it's not Open Source then all the SRD data has to be in human readable files (XML tables and other formatted-yet-plain-text databases are fine. A propritary database format probably is not. Check with a lawyer).

To use PCGen as an example, all the data from the SRD is in separate, plain-text files which must be unzipped to use the program.


******************
I didn't mean to offend the folks at PC Gen or imply that they were doing anything wrong and if it was taken that way I am very sorry. Based on all of the posts and the above one in particular, I think I will be fine as I currently only want to use the lists from the SRD in a Javascript program which would have a button to display the Open Game License and another to display all of the Open Game Content. Plus, Javascript and HTML are little more than formatted-yet-plain-text files that easily human-readable.

 

[Leopold]

Doc: I highly doubt you'll offend any of those on the PCGen team. They've got tough skin and have already been through the firestorm that OGL/D20 licensing is a year ago. It's a rough battle and a tough one and your best and simplest bet to see if your in compliance is to contact Anthony V. or Andrew S. at WOTC with any questions that you have.

They've been there done that and got the merit badge for it. So has Twin Rose, Roleplaying Master, and several other software companies who didn't go the D20 route and went for OGL only.



I'll be honest though, if i were a programmer and wanted to do RPG programs i would skip the D20 logo and go OGL only. So much easier to do and by far allot more breathing room to play with.

 

[doctorjeff98]

Does anyone have contact info for Anthony or Andre that they can share? Or, if one of you two is reading this, would you mind contacting me directly? These two names have popped up several times during my quest for info.