Damage Calculation for Secondary Effects

[Scalding]

By way of example, let's use the level 3 Warlock encounter power, Fiery Bolt.

3d6 + Constitution modifier (+4) fire damage, and creatures adjacent to the target take 1d6 + Constitution modifier fire damage (...) and extra fire damage equal to your Intelligence modifier (+3).

To really drive home the point, let's use a magic Cinder Wand + 2. That means it'll do an additional 2d6 fire damage + 1d10 damage on a crit, and +2 to damage rolls on fire attack powers.

The question is, how is this damage calculated? The main attack effect seems pretty easy:

3d6 + Constitution modifier + enhancement bonus + cinder wand
= 3d6 + 4 + 2 + 2 = 3d6 + 8 fire damage.
(crit = 1d10 damage + 2d6 + 26 fire damage)

The question is, what about the secondary effect (creatures adjacent to the target)? Do the enhancement bonus and cinder wand bonus apply?

1d6 + Constitution modifier + enhancement bonus + cinder wand + Intelligence modifier
= 1d6 + 4 + 2 + 2 + 3 = 1d6 +11 fire damage.

And does the crit max it out and add the bonus?
1d10 damage + 2d6 + 17 fire damage?

 

[DracoSuave]

By way of example, let's use the level 3 Warlock encounter power, Fiery Bolt.



To really drive home the point, let's use a magic Cinder Wand + 2. That means it'll do an additional 2d6 fire damage + 1d10 damage on a crit, and +2 to damage rolls on fire attack powers.

The question is, how is this damage calculated? The main attack effect seems pretty easy:

3d6 + Constitution modifier + enhancement bonus + cinder wand
= 3d6 + 4 + 2 + 2 = 3d6 + 8 fire damage.
(crit = 1d10 damage + 2d6 + 26 fire damage)

The question is, what about the secondary effect (creatures adjacent to the target)? Do the enhancement bonus and cinder wand bonus apply?

1d6 + Constitution modifier + enhancement bonus + cinder wand + Intelligence modifier
= 1d6 + 4 + 2 + 2 + 3 = 1d6 +11 fire damage.

And does the crit max it out and add the bonus?
1d10 damage + 2d6 + 17 fire damage?

It's a Hit, crits totally boost everything in it.

 

[Shin Okada]

The damage to the adjacent creatures is written in the hit line, thus, I say that is affected by the attack roll = critical hit rules are applied. All the benefit from being critical hit (maximum damage, extra damage, additional effect, etc.) should be applied.

 

[Scalding]

DracoSuave,
I think I agree, but it got me thinking, and it just seems a bit overpowered. For another example, the Fighter At-Will, Cleave:

1[w] + Strength modifier (+4) damage, and an enemy adjacent to you other than the target takes damage equal to your Strength modifier.

So it's very similar, except there's no die roll for the secondary effect. Still, this interpretation means the secondary damage isn't 4, as I had always played it, but rather that it's 4 + enhancement bonus, and on a crit it may be quite a bit higher. Is this the intention?

 

[Kingreaper]

DracoSuave,
I think I agree, but it got me thinking, and it just seems a bit overpowered. For another example, the Fighter At-Will, Cleave:



So it's very similar, except there's no die roll for the secondary effect. Still, this interpretation means the secondary damage isn't 4, as I had always played it, but rather that it's 4 + enhancement bonus, and on a crit it may be quite a bit higher. Is this the intention?

Enhancement bonus specifically adds to damage ROLLS. No die roll= no damage roll

But I am also very interested in what happens with this on a crit, 'cause I'm not currently sure.

 

[Shin Okada]

I agree with Kingreaper. And IMHO that is not a big deal. Those powers target only one creature and thus, one attack roll. And situational, as you have another enemy who is adjacent to the target. It is hard to utilize it intentionally.

 

[Scalding]

Enhancement bonus specifically adds to damage ROLLS. No die roll= no damage roll

I was really surprised when you said that, because it's not like the weapon isn't being used to hit the neighboring enemy with the cleave. So I fired up the character builder and did a test with a lowly level 1 Wizard. The power was the At-Will: Chilling Cloud, which simply does Intelligence modifier damage, although it does have the implement keyword and gain implement bonuses to the attack.

And you're exactly right. The damage in that situation is straight strength damage, no bonuses for magical or superior implements.

So I think we've solved this one. Thanks everyone!

 

[abyssaldeath]

I was really surprised when you said that, because it's not like the weapon isn't being used to hit the neighboring enemy with the cleave. So I fired up the character builder and did a test with a lowly level 1 Wizard. The power was the At-Will: Chilling Cloud, which simply does Intelligence modifier damage, although it does have the implement keyword and gain implement bonuses to the attack.

And you're exactly right. The damage in that situation is straight strength damage, no bonuses for magical or superior implements.

So I think we've solved this one. Thanks everyone!

Do not use the CB to test out secondary attacks/damage. The CB doesn't calculate damage for secondary attacks/damage, not even for Twin Strike.

The damage to the adjacent creatures is a separate damage roll from the main target. Therefor you would add all you bonuses you would normally add.

 

[Black Knight Irios]

Originally Posted by CustServ
Thanks for your patients on this. The rules are not precise on this should be handled, I imagine that is why this question came up. The intent is that critical hits would and the benefits for them would only apply to the target you rolled to hit.

Fiery Bolt: The target of the power would be effected by the critical hit but all of the "splash" damage would not. Furious Smash: You would add the extra critical dice to the damage for the attack but your allies attack would not be effected. Cleave: Only the main target would take extra damage from the critical hit.

And old CS reply to a similar question.

If the secondary targets damage does not include a damage roll you can't add things that require a damage roll.

You can say that you apply critical damage to all secondary targets but consider these powers are not meant as true AEs. Those would be close and area powers. So a single crit should not apply crit damage to any/all secondary targets of the hit entry.

 

[Scalding]

Do not use the CB to test out secondary attacks/damage. The CB doesn't calculate damage for secondary attacks/damage, not even for Twin Strike.

Yes; that's why I tested it on Chilling Cloud, which has only one effect and no secondary. It does Intelligence modifier damage, with no roll, and therefore was an example of the case in question.

If CB calculated damage for secondary attacks (and one could assume it did so properly), we wouldn't be having this discussion.