Dangerous Objects, Bullrush Consequences - The Flamming Sphere Strike Back (again)

[ien2lest]

Hello all !

I'm french, so please don't be rude with my (poor) english - I use a dictionary .

I wish to present you my first contribution on your (excellent) forum : The Flamming Sphere Strike Back (again) !

I play an eladrin wizard and discovered many problems to manage the controller role. So I read the rules, but not all. And I found your forum. Now I try to write a few houses rules to clarify or complete the existent rules.

The first problem was the bullrush rule. In fact, the real problem is the consequences, not the rule itself. Why ? Because if a bullrush have no consequences regardless of any dammages, I think it's unfinished.

For example, consider a character who fight and bullrush an ennemy which his back is front a wall. The rule say that the bullrush have no consequence because there's no place to move after. Well. But imagine a wall with pikes ! So what do you think it will happen in this situation ?

That's the first step of my problem.

My wizard use the at-will power Thunderwave. I know with the grace of you, that this power is not the first you could recommand (I read about the Fortitude Defense regardless of the Reflexe Defense) but I intended to use (and abuse if I could) the secondary effect : the push.

That's the link with the bullrush rule.

If you think like me it's necessary to create a house rule to manage consequences of bullrushs, so you may like my "combo".
Imagine, again, a situation where my wizard could use his Thunderwave to push foes on the Flamming Sphere ! If the bullrush is the only rule to decide what happen here, there is a big problem, doesn't it ?

I need to precise I'm not a power user of D&D but I'm an experienced player in many rpgs. I don't whant to break the balance, but I realize the real problem is that if the rules don't give you the right to do something, sometimes you will not try, or your DM will dissuade you.

I think it's a good idea to write a house rule to manage the consequences of bullrush, and of course, all the push or slide effects. Some existent rules describes a few consequences like falling after a bullrush or enter in a dangerous zone. A save roll is the response of WOTC. I think it's a balance break, and really absurd, in certain situations like :

_ Bigby’s Icy Grasp (if the hand grabs a foe, move over a pit and release him)
_ Bullrush or any push, slide effect to move a foe in a square adjacent to the Flamming Sphere

To be precise with my previous searches, I consider the move of conjurations is not limited by the gravity and can move 3D because a conjuration is not affect by environmental forces. Plus, a conjuration is solid like WOTC said in the answer of another thread there :

Dragon Avenue Forums | 4E Rules Question- Flaming Sphere

So, with my "combo" [ Flamming Sphere + Thunderwave ], and a good placement with others allied, multiple attacks could be tried to push foes on the Sphere for 2d6+Int Damages for each hit. If you think the 2d6+Int is not appropriate, consider that 1d4+Int is a consequence of the Sphere heating proximity and not a direct contact like the attack does when the conjurer use the Sphere to rush to an adjacent creature.

Now I'll trying to write the house rule I suggest, and wish to do it with you if possible.

Thanks for your work and your advices.

 

[Alex319]

I'm not really sure I understand what the problem is here.

First of all, is your problem with the bull rush action in particular or all forced movement? Its hard to tell because you first start talking about bull rushes but then start talking about thunderwave, and you refer to thunderwave-induced forced movement as part of the "bullrush rule", which it isn't - bullrush is just one type of action that can cause forced movement; thunderwave is another.

In any case, the "consequence" of a bull rush is that the target is pushed one square. This can, of course, result in lots of other different things depending on the tactical situation, like damage from hazardous terrain, certain position-dependent abilities, etc.

In your example of a wall with pikes, that would just be another type of "hazardous terrain," that if a player is pushed into, he suffers damage. And if you're designing an encounter, then you can put in terrain with whatever effects you want. There is no need for a houserule to modify bullrush or forced movement in general; that would just be something specific to that scenario. The general rules for forced movement govern how a combatant can be moved into the spikes - the specific rules associated with the spiked wall would govern what happens when a character is moved there.

It seems like what you want is another type of terrain:

Dangerous Wall: This is like an ordinary wall in that it cannot be entered and blocks line of sight and line of effect. However, it has the property that if a character would be pushed into the wall by forced movement, he suffers X damage and ends his forced movement in the last legal square he occupied.

---

As for pushing a player onto the Flaming Sphere, remember that you can already push them adjacent to the flaming sphere and make them take damage that way. You could certainly make a houserule that applies the "dangerous wall" effect above to the square that the flaming sphere occupies. However, be warned that this will make Flaming Sphere, which is already widely recognized as the most powerful Wizard daily, to be significantly more powerful. Many classes have at-will forced movement effects, and this would essentially make all these forced movement effects do 2d6+INT damage in addition to the forced movement (if they can push him onto the flaming sphere) which is very powerful. If you do decide to do it this way, you might want to tone down the damage on Flaming Sphere across-the-board to compensate.

As for the save roll to avoid forced movement onto dangerous terrain, how is it a "balance break?" Do you think it makes forced movement not powerful enough? What it's supposed to represent is "catching yourself" as you're being pushed over. As for Bigby's Icy Grasp, remember that if you try to push him over and he succeeds on the save, he is not automatically freed - you can still try again next turn.

In any case, you can certainly add the following houserule:

If you are force-moved over a pit or into dangerous terrain due to movement from a grab, you do not get a save.

----

Does this answer your questions? You mention that the problem is that the rules "don't give you the right to do" certain things that you want to do. Can you give an example of something the rules don't give you the right to do that you want to do?

 

[ien2lest]

Wahou ! Thanks Alex ! I need to be clear. Sorry.

I play my wizard with the Thunderwave and Magic Missile at-will powers. It is the first time I play D&D 4 with the goal to be DM after. That's why I try to understand the rules, learn them, and understand their spirit . My first experience with D&D (1st ed. and Advanced) was desastrous because of stupids DM. I don't want to do the same.

I'm aware of the wizard design in previous version of D&D and think that some people are a bit influenced by the old balance : the wizard was very powerfull (of course after the 1st levels). I don't know about the creators intentions of the current version, but I think they are also influenced by that.

So. I complete my wizard with Flamming Sphere, and many problems appeared like you could expect. My DM used sometimes the Flamming Sphere like a Blocking Terrain, and sometimes not because of the rules like they are written currently, even with the official errata. I'm not complaining here, but trying to tell the problems like they happened.

After that, I read a lot about Flamming Sphere and discovered your forum . I think now I have a good vision about this power and their consequences in the game balance. But with this search, in the goal to respect the rules as if possible, I'm forced to explain constantly my vision to my DM before the party. If not, he was surprised and forced to analyse in the heat of action. That's why I think it's better to plan the consequences of the rules when many problems with some powers are unavoidables.

And it's the Wizard Syndrom in this version of D&D. Consider the Mage Hand and the manipulate possibility compare to the Mordenkainen Sword conjuration. Many problems...

Then I try to write a document to prepare some of interpretations about wizard powers like the grabbing possibilty of Bigby's Icy Grasp, Mage Hand manipulations, and Flaming Sphere for examples.

Some people wanted to modify the balance because of the "powerfull" Flaming Sphere. I'm not convince it's necessary because some consequences on conjurate. If a wizard use a conjuration, he must choose between offensive with the conjuration, sustaining it, move the conjuration and himself, etc. When he use a conjuration he is less mobile, and then much vulnerable. If a power make you much easier to target, don't you think it could be compensated by a "powerfull" power ?

But with the consequences to a push/slide effect on the Flaming Sphere, the problem is much complicated. Some people shall want, perhaps, to banish this power ! Stupid . This problem is a consequence of a void in the rules, or the balance, or the two of them. It's just my opinion of course.

I analysed further the consequences of push/slide effects. And the problem is that the rules allow a save roll "each time" a creature is pushed/slided trough a Hindering Terrain. All of the squares adjacents to a Flaming Sphere are Hindering Terrain if I don't mistaking myself. So, if a wizard use Thunderwave to push on the Flaming Sphere a creature wich is not adjacent to the Flaming Sphere, the creature could avoid the danger with a save roll before entering into a square adjacent to the Sphere and another save roll before the contact to the Sphere. Two save rolls !

For the problem of grabbing with Bigby's Icy Grasp, I intend to use this conjuration to grab a foe, to move the conjuration up (in 3D) and release the foe to provoque a fall. In that case, if the foe could do a save roll, it's impossible to avoid the fall. That's why I think it's necessary to clarify again the consequences of the push/slide effects.

Of course it's a DM's work to prepare the party and to be aware of these problems, and resolve it. But with all the problems with magic powers I found, I think it could be a good idea to help him to do a "good" work .

---

I like your house rule for grab exception . The Dangerous Wall is your creation ? I think it will be more general if I write a house rule like that:

Dangerous Object:

A Dangerous Object is an object wich is considered like Hindering Terrain. The damages of the object depends on it's nature and applied when a creature is forced-move on it. If a push/slide effect move a creature on it, the target of the push/slide effect could avoid damages with a saving throw. If the object is an obstacle, but not blocking, a creature could stand in it's space. If the object is blocking, the adjacent squares are not considered like Hindering Terrain.

Update to Flaming Sphere:

Special: Consider the Sphere like a Dangerous Object. The squares adjacent to the Sphere are Hindering Terrain.

 

[Alex319]

Wahou ! Thanks Alex ! I need to be clear. Sorry.

I play my wizard with the Thunderwave and Magic Missile at-will powers. It is the first time I play D&D 4 with the goal to be DM after. That's why I try to understand the rules, learn them, and understand their spirit . My first experience with D&D (1st ed. and Advanced) was desastrous because of stupids DM. I don't want to do the same.

I'm aware of the wizard design in previous version of D&D and think that some people are a bit influenced by the old balance : the wizard was very powerfull (of course after the 1st levels). I don't know about the creators intentions of the current version, but I think they are also influenced by that.

Actually, one of the design goals of 4th edition was specifically to make all classes balanced at all levels, and to avoid the 3.5e problem where wizards were very weak at low levels due to lack of spells, but became extremely powerful at high levels due to their large array of spells (see Linear Warriors Quadratic Wizards - Television Tropes & Idioms).

One of the ways of achieving this balance was to standardize the formats for spells and more closely define what the spells can do, thus eliminating unwanted secondary effects of spells. (For instance, in 3.5e, there was a 1st level spell "Enlarge Person" that only gave relatively minor bonuses to damage, but did increase the target's weight by a factor of 8. A very effective way to use this spell, and a way that could do a lot more damage than the normal way of using this spell, was to cast it on an ally and then teleport him over the head of an enemy.)

This is also why they turned all the non-combat spells into rituals - to preserve their non-combat use, but put more of a limit on them and eliminate the use of them in combat, which could easily lead to some overpowered combos (like the one above.)

So. I complete my wizard with Flamming Sphere, and many problems appeared like you could expect. My DM used sometimes the Flamming Sphere like a Blocking Terrain, and sometimes not because of the rules like they are written currently, even with the official errata. I'm not complaining here, but trying to tell the problems like they happened.

According to the errata, a conjuration does not occupy any squares. However, the Flaming Sphere is an exception, because it specifically says in the power that the sphere is of Medium size, and the definition of Medium size is that it occupies one square (PHB p.282). In terms of mvement, the conjuration operates just like a creature - allies can move through it (though they can't end their move in the same space as it) but enemies cannot.

After that, I read a lot about Flamming Sphere and discovered your forum . I think now I have a good vision about this power and their consequences in the game balance. But with this search, in the goal to respect the rules as if possible, I'm forced to explain constantly my vision to my DM before the party. If not, he was surprised and forced to analyse in the heat of action. That's why I think it's better to plan the consequences of the rules when many problems with some powers are unavoidables.

What "vision" are you talking about? And what do you think the "problems" are?

And it's the Wizard Syndrom in this version of D&D. Consider the Mage Hand and the manipulate possibility compare to the Mordenkainen Sword conjuration. Many problems...

I don't know what "manipulate possibility" you are talking about. Mage Hand can manipulate one object weighing 20 pounds or less. Enemies are not "objects," and most weigh far more than 20 pounds. If you are talking about manipulating a weapon in order to attack with it, there is nothing in the rules that says you can do this, so if you wanted to try it would be solely at the DM's discretion.

If you specifically want houserules for using a Mage Hand to attack with, then you could say something like this: "You can take a standard action to command your mage hand to attack with a weapon held in its hand. Resolve this as a melee basic attack with Strength bonus of +0." This is (intentionally) weaker than most at-wills, as the intent is to make it useful only in special situations and not to have the mage using it as his primary attack (that's what the at-wills are for.)
[/quote]

Then I try to write a document to prepare some of interpretations about wizard powers like the grabbing possibilty of Bigby's Icy Grasp, Mage Hand manipulations, and Flaming Sphere for examples.

If you could post that document here, it would help us a lot.

Some people wanted to modify the balance because of the "powerfull" Flaming Sphere. I'm not convince it's necessary because some consequences on conjurate. If a wizard use a conjuration, he must choose between offensive with the conjuration, sustaining it, move the conjuration and himself, etc. When he use a conjuration he is less mobile, and then much vulnerable. If a power make you much easier to target, don't you think it could be compensated by a "powerfull" power ?

Sustaining most conjurations is a minor action, so it doesn't interfere with anything that requires standard or move actions.

Yes, the wizard does have to choose between moving the conjuration or moving himself. But in a party using good tactics, the wizard will largely be behind the front lines, making it hard for enemies to get to them even if they don't move.

In any case Flaming Sphere already does more damage than other 1st level dailies, and this is partially balanced out by the effects you've mentioned. Unless you STILL think it is underpowered (and if you do, you're in a small minority on these boards) then adding extra perks to it is just going to make it more overpowered.

But with the consequences to a push/slide effect on the Flaming Sphere, the problem is much complicated. Some people shall want, perhaps, to banish this power ! Stupid . This problem is a consequence of a void in the rules, or the balance, or the two of them. It's just my opinion of course.

I analysed further the consequences of push/slide effects. And the problem is that the rules allow a save roll "each time" a creature is pushed/slided trough a Hindering Terrain. All of the squares adjacents to a Flaming Sphere are Hindering Terrain if I don't mistaking myself. So, if a wizard use Thunderwave to push on the Flaming Sphere a creature wich is not adjacent to the Flaming Sphere, the creature could avoid the danger with a save roll before entering into a square adjacent to the Sphere and another save roll before the contact to the Sphere. Two save rolls !

This may have been confusing, and I apologize for possibly adding to the confusion in my previous response. According to the RAW (rules as written), you only get a saving throw when entering hindering terrain. Hindering terrain is its own terrain type, and is not created by any power (unless the power specifically mentions that it creates hindering terrain). Thus, Flaming Sphere does not create hindering terrain.

This does mean, for example, that characters do not get saves from being forced into a Wall of Fire, which doesn't make a lot of sense. Therefore, many DMs play with a rule that says that you get saves from being forced into any terrain that deals damage when you move into it. owever, Flaming Sphere is not in this category; it deals damage at the beginning of your turn, not when you move into it. You can also rule that players only ever get one save per instance of forced movement.

For the problem of grabbing with Bigby's Icy Grasp, I intend to use this conjuration to grab a foe, to move the conjuration up (in 3D) and release the foe to provoque a fall. In that case, if the foe could do a save roll, it's impossible to avoid the fall. That's why I think it's necessary to clarify again the consequences of the push/slide effects.

I don't believe you can move a Bigby's Icy Grasp hand up (in 3D). Movement normally only means moving on the ground, unless specifically stated otherwise, and I don't see anything in Bigby's Icy Grasp that states otherwise.

Of course it's a DM's work to prepare the party and to be aware of these problems, and resolve it. But with all the problems with magic powers I found, I think it could be a good idea to help him to do a "good" work .

---

I like your house rule for grab exception . The Dangerous Wall is your creation ? I think it will be more general if I write a house rule like that:

Dangerous Object:

A Dangerous Object is an object wich is considered like Hindering Terrain. The damages of the object depends on it's nature and applied when a creature is forced-move on it. If a push/slide effect move a creature on it, the target of the push/slide effect could avoid damages with a saving throw. If the object is an obstacle, but not blocking, a creature could stand in it's space. If the object is blocking, the adjacent squares are not considered like Hindering Terrain.

My proposed houserule assumed the object was "blocking" in that a creature could not stand in its space. If it's not blocking, then it's just like ordinary hindering terrain in that you can stand on it but it takes damage. You can always create whatever effects you want in a square that you can enter. My proposed houserule was to specifically implement the "wall of pikes" type idea - a square that cannot be entered, but that does damage if someone tried to force-move an enemy into it.

Update to Flaming Sphere:

Special: Consider the Sphere like a Dangerous Object. The squares adjacent to the Sphere are Hindering Terrain.

[/quote]

How much damage does the Sphere do as a "dangerous object"? 2d6+INT? If so that seems pretty darn powerful, as described above.

 

[ien2lest]

I wish to thank you Alex because your post is helping me.

This is a new version of my house-rules :

Dangerous Object:

A Dangerous Object is an object wich is considered like Hindering Terrain. The damages of the object depends on it's nature and applied when a creature is forced to move on it. If the object is an obstacle, but not blocking, a creature could stand in it's space. If the object is blocking, the adjacent squares are not always considered like Hindering Terrain.

Flaming Sphere (Update):

Special: Consider the Sphere like a Dangerous Object which makes 2d6+Int damages if a creature is forced to move on it. The squares adjacent to the Sphere are not Hindering Terrain.

Catching Yourself (Update):

If you are forced to move on a Dangerous Object, you gain an immediate saving throw before the choc on it. If it is successfull, you fall prone in the square you occupied before contact with the object and you don't take any damages.

Notes: I consider some object which could take place in a square, could be dangerous, and could be small as it doesn't block the square. That's why I describe the Dangerous Object like this.
Just a little more in the shade of meaning about Dangerous Objects. You know I think the hole trap. Down there, the ground may have pikes to make more damages. So, when a creature fall in, the pikes add damages to the fall, of course. After "landing", the ground is not always Hindering Terrain, because of the lenght of the pikes, and if they are not broken, their numbers which determines density surface, etc. And a creature could sometimes stand between them...

My point of view is that a square is not always full of Hindering Terrain, or not. It's not allways "black or white", don't you think so ?

Conjuration 3D movement:

The conjurations rules explains that "Unless a power description says otherwise, a conjuration cannot be attacked or physically affected". So I think logically that gravity doesn't affect a conjuration. If not, do you think gravity is not a natural physical force ? Yes I understand the potential about my interpretation of this rule, but how are you so sure it's not like that WOTC wanted to ? And what about the mass of a conjuration ? And the wind ? And what about the Fortitude use to determine the mass of a character without a link to his wheight ? Like I said before, many, many problems...

It's not the point of course. My goal is to create a good house-rule to use my Thunderwave push effect accordingly with my DM. He may refuse it. But when I'll begin my parties as a DM as well, I'll use it to offer my players some options to work together in a creative way. If it's necessary, I'll create, modify or use a house-rule for balancing the damages of the sphere.

Perhaps I'll translate my french work about consequences of the creative magical powers usages in D&D4 later and post it here. If you wish to, take a look here sometimes , and I'll do my best as quickly as I can.

According to the errata, a conjuration does not occupy any squares. However, the Flaming Sphere is an exception, because it specifically says in the power that the sphere is of Medium size, and the definition of Medium size is that it occupies one square (PHB p.282). In terms of mvement, the conjuration operates just like a creature - allies can move through it (though they can't end their move in the same space as it) but enemies cannot.

I think different. WOTC publish 3 errata (2 for Flaming Sphere, and 1 to Conjurations):

Flaming Sphere (01/20/2009)
You conjure a Medium flaming sphere that occupies a square within range, and the sphere attacks. Any creature that starts its turn adjacent to the sphere takes 1d4 + Intelligence modifier fire damage. As a move action, you can move the sphere 6 squares.

Conjurations (06/10/2008)
Unless a power description says otherwise, a conjuration cannot be attacked or physically affected, and a conjuration does not occupy any squares.

And like you could read in the thread I place in my first post:

Dragon Avenue Forums | 4E Rules Question- Flaming Sphere

WOTC think that the sphere is solid ! I'm not interprating like it is usable for my character. It's just a consequence of the authors's view. The sphere is not a creature because if so, what about OA ? I'm not opposed of a house-rule to consider the magical sphere like a portcullis. Why not. But it's not simple to determine what a conjuration can really do, like I introduce with that post.

[A few] Others problems with Flaming Sphere (extract of my work):

_ How many attacks per turn ? (just 1 even with Action Point, consequences of the rules only but subtle)
_ Is it necessary to sustain the first round the conjuration appears ? (no, consequence of the rule)
_ Could the sphere flanking ? (no, it is not self-governing, consequence of the rules and a little interpretation)
_ How much the sphere shining ? (like a camp fire or a torch, no rule to decide)

Some of Mage Hand manipulation possibilities:

_ Grab an object in hand of a foe
_ Grab or push over the ammunition
_ Grab a part of a creature's body
_ Slam the face of a foe
_ Trow tomatoes, eggs
_ Pour out oil on the ennemy feet

Yes we can ! Because of the description of the power:

"The hand picks up, moves, or manipulates an adjacent object weighing 20 pounds or less and carries it up to 5 squares."

If not, how do you interpret the manipulate word ? And what sort of usages do you do with cantrips if you are so restrain that you dissuade wizard players to imagine how to do a creative thing ? The balance is not all, and focusing only on it will drive you the wrong way to have more fun.

I'm impatient to read your reactions !

 

[Alex319]

Conjuration 3D movement:

The conjurations rules explains that "Unless a power description says otherwise, a conjuration cannot be attacked or physically affected". So I think logically that gravity doesn't affect a conjuration. If not, do you think gravity is not a natural physical force ?

The fact that gravity does not affect a conjuration does not necessarily imply that it is possible to move it up in the air. For example, one could suppose that the magic will only sustain the conjuration up to a few feet above the ground. After all, there are still physical limits to the conjuration, like how fast it can move per round. (But, it's your game, you're free to interpret it how you want.)

Yes I understand the potential about my interpretation of this rule, but how are you so sure it's not like that WOTC wanted to ?

Because if WotC wanted a conjuration to fly, they would have explicitly given it a fly speed.

And what about the mass of a conjuration ? And the wind ? And what about the Fortitude use to determine the mass of a character without a link to his wheight ?

What about them? I'm not sure I understand what the problem is. Presumably since a conjuration "cannot be attacked or physically affected", it would not be affected by the wind, and knowing its mass would be unnecessary. And I have no idea what you're talking about in regards to "Fortitude use to determine the mass of a character."

It's not the point of course. My goal is to create a good house-rule to use my Thunderwave push effect accordingly with my DM. He may refuse it. But when I'll begin my parties as a DM as well, I'll use it to offer my players some options to work together in a creative way. If it's necessary, I'll create, modify or use a house-rule for balancing the damages of the sphere.

I guess I'm still not 100% clear on what that house rule would entail. What, specifically, do you want to do with Thunderwave that you can't do already?

Perhaps I'll translate my french work about consequences of the creative magical powers usages in D&D4 later and post it here. If you wish to, take a look here sometimes , and I'll do my best as quickly as I can.

If you do, I'll take a look. It would really help clear up a lot of the confusion.

I think different. WOTC publish 3 errata (2 for Flaming Sphere, and 1 to Conjurations):

Flaming Sphere (01/20/2009)
You conjure a Medium flaming sphere that occupies a square within range, and the sphere attacks. Any creature that starts its turn adjacent to the sphere takes 1d4 + Intelligence modifier fire damage. As a move action, you can move the sphere 6 squares.

Conjurations (06/10/2008)
Unless a power description says otherwise, a conjuration cannot be attacked or physically affected, and a conjuration does not occupy any squares.

And like you could read in the thread I place in my first post:

Dragon Avenue Forums | 4E Rules Question- Flaming Sphere

WOTC think that the sphere is solid ! I'm not interprating like it is usable for my character. It's just a consequence of the authors's view. The sphere is not a creature because if so, what about OA ? I'm not opposed of a house-rule to consider the magical sphere like a portcullis. Why not. But it's not simple to determine what a conjuration can really do, like I introduce with that post.

Okay, you're right, I'm wrong. I wasn't paying attention to the errata.

Some of Mage Hand manipulation possibilities:

_ Grab an object in hand of a foe
_ Grab or push over the ammunition
_ Grab a part of a creature's body
_ Slam the face of a foe
_ Trow tomatoes, eggs
_ Pour out oil on the ennemy feet

Yes we can ! Because of the description of the power:

"The hand picks up, moves, or manipulates an adjacent object weighing 20 pounds or less and carries it up to 5 squares."

If not, how do you interpret the manipulate word ? And what sort of usages do you do with cantrips if you are so restrain that you dissuade wizard players to imagine how to do a creative thing ? The balance is not all, and focusing only on it will drive you the wrong way to have more fun.

I'm impatient to read your reactions !

I didn't mean to "dissuade" anyone from anything. My question was trying to understand what you wanted so that I would be better able to give advice.

I see two possible directions to go in with these houserules:

1. If you have a relatively small set of specific actions that you want to do with Mage Hand (like grab a foe or throw an object) then it would be possible to come up with specific rules for those actions. For example, grabbing could be resolved like a regular grab action except using the mage's Int as the attack, throwing an object could be a ranged attack roll, etc. Oftentimes there are existing rules that do something close to what you want to do, so only a little needs to be changed.

2. You don't have a particular list of actions; what you want to do is make up actions on the fly, like different ways to use the Mage Hand. This is often referred to as "stunting" - "improvised" combat actions that aren't covered in the rules, and every group has their own way of doing these. There is advice on how to handle these on Page 42 of the DMG - you could start there for inspiration.