Dark Blooded (template for fiends)

[Matrix Sorcica]

Well, I figured that since you were kind enough to review my templates, I'd extend the same favor.

Thanks!

Okay... call me stupid (well, don't call me stupid. It would hurt my feelings...), but what is this about the fiend now being "a 7 HD base creature? I don't understand this.

No one here is stupid. It's a left over from before I made the CR increase a bit more sensible. It has to do with the fiend using a 7 HD advancement range for its first 21 HD instead of the base fiend's own. I'll remove it, thanks for pointing it out.

What's the rationale behind having arcane caster levels in exclusion to other class options? And, are these integrated class levels, or true class levels (which would allow for additional Feats, Attk bonus progression, save progression, etc)?

The rationale lies in the high Cha requirement to qualify for the template. That makes sorcerer an obivous choice. Plus, it lets the Dark Blooded use some divine spells (being powered by the Dark Planes themselves) without it getting really out of hand, because of the sorcerers small spell selection. However, it might also handle other classes well. Good idea, I'll consider it.

As for the spellcasting, it's the ability, not true class levels. Sorcerer levels taken would stack with the integrated ones, however.

Is there a detect thoughts spell anymore? I thought there was only ESP...

Yep, there's a detect thought spell...PHB p. 193

Again, what's the rationale for this ability? Additionally, I would recommend increasing this to 20th level since Balor's cast all spells at 20th already and seems a little silly for this one ability to be lower than all others. In fact, you may want to consider having the caster level for this equal to whatever existing (improved) caster level the Fiend already possesses.

As plotters and manipulators of the Dark Planes, it's quite healthy to be able to read others' minds.
Your points are good, I'll make changes.

Nice... although I'm curious as to the rationale for this. It helps (IMO) to explain why the ability exists as it creates a better grasp of the intent behind the Template. I would guess this is here to help these advanced Fiends further trick mortals.... but if this is the case, why are they consorts to Dukes of Hell and Demon Lords that dwell in the Lower Planes?

Good point! I'll address it.

Nice... although I'd be attempted to increase it to 10/+2... This would really put these Fiends just shy of really powerful beings.

I would be too. At first, I was concerned about CR, but since adding this template to a balor makes it CR 23, DR 40/+5 doesn't sound that bad. I'll use it, thanks!

I would also recommend increasing their Charisma and Intelligence. Afterall, how does a Fiend typically see an increase in their Charisma? Furthermore, based upon your description, both of these abilities are directly related to the template... while Dex and Con aren't.

Good points again. Tha rationale was that these guys had to be fast and resilient before they could make it to the point where they would get this template. But that should just be done by high stats and not modifiers. Do think they need to be a little fatser and tougher, though. Didn't first want to increase Cha, as the fiend would already have a very high one, but of course it should go up, and Int too.
How does this look: Dex +2, Con +2, Int +4, Cha +4

Looks good!

Thanks, I've really had a lot of thought as to the CR and I think I got it about right now.

Thanks for your input, it's been really helpful.

BTW, your Demon Lord template, it is the final version that's on the board, or will there be an 'official final' version?

-Sorcica

 

[Cheiromancer]

to a maximum of one lower than its CR or 21, whichever is lowest.

I think you should reword this. It is not clear if this means

a) (one lower than its CR) or (21), whichever is lowest

or

b) one lower than (its CR or 21, whichever is lowest)

The first is the logical reading, but it leads to high CR creatures casting as 21st level casters, which is contrary to the normal cap of 20th level.

Now about the DR- I consider the Balors to be of a higher rank than the other demons- the nobility of the abyss. Partly because they can kill with a thought (implosion), and partly because the natural weapons of lesser demons can't harm them.

A template which would "promote" demons like succubi to the same noble rank as balors should increase the DR by */+1. The same promotion, when given to balors, would raise them to the approximate dignity and rank of a Solar.

As for the CR 23 Dark-Blooded Balor... maybe its CR is over-estimated?

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

I think you should reword this. It is not clear if this means

a) (one lower than its CR) or (21), whichever is lowest

or

b) one lower than (its CR or 21, whichever is lowest)

The first is the logical reading, but it leads to high CR creatures casting as 21st level casters, which is contrary to the normal cap of 20th level.

The original meaning is a). I don't have a problem with 21st as caster level, normal cap or no, as these are the spellcasters of fiends. But I likewise have no problem with a cap of 20, so if people wants to use 'one lower than CR or 20, whichever is lowest' it's fine with me.

Now about the DR- I consider the Balors to be of a higher rank than the other demons- the nobility of the abyss. Partly because they can kill with a thought (implosion), and partly because the natural weapons of lesser demons can't harm them.

A template which would "promote" demons like succubi to the same noble rank as balors should increase the DR by */+1. The same promotion, when given to balors, would raise them to the approximate dignity and rank of a Solar.

I'm still not decided on this one. If added to a succubus it gains DR 30/+4 and CR 13 - too powerful for that probably.
If added to a Balor it gains DR 40/+5 and CR 23 which I think is appropiate.

If I stick with /+1 it becomes 20/+3 for the succubus which is good and 30/+4 for the Balor which is a bit weak, IMO.
I'll have to think a little about this.

As for the CR 23 Dark-Blooded Balor... maybe its CR is over-estimated?

Yeah, probably. This IMO is partly because the CR's for demons are very high. There seems to be a great empasis (sp?) on special abilities and less on physical. Thus demons have few HD for their CR, if you ask me.
But one could advance a Balor to 20 HD which would be CR 25. That would give it DR 40/+5 or 30/+4 depending and SR 37 and casting level 20. That's not too bad, I think (also compared to Orcus at CR 28 - which make me lean toward 40/+5).

It is very difficult with the high CR/low HD demons to create some sort of CR pattern. The template works best on slightly advanced fiends.

Maybe DR could be some function of HD too? I'll try and create something, but any idea would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

-Sorcica

Edit: added the balor example