Dark Sun 3E rules

I got it, but as far as I can judge, I am "Not Impressed."

I mean, it has MANY very cool ideas. But from the 'you can't use other rules with this unless we say so' insular stance, to the questionable balance (feats that replicate about 2nd level spells?!), to the glut of new weapons that could've been better represented (an alak is a weird-lookin' mace, a carrikal is just a battle axe or great axe with inferior materials), to the 'let's introduce new terrain for no great reason', to being somewhat exclusionary (Which has something to do with the first point), to the lack of telling me how to make my character a defiler or preserver (they go into length describing them, but no where do they say where to make the choice, or how defiling affects the area, or even if this 'great skill' that preservers need make them a PrC of some type), I get the impression I can't really use a good chunk of this without some hose rules.

I like it over all, and it's long overdue. :) But there are quite a few places where I see the coolness being limited or inhibited, and some places where aparently something was too cool to not give out, no matter how powerful it may be in comparison (power scaling rules, I'm looking at you!).

Anyhoo, great job overall...definately an appreciated effort. :)
 

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When 80% of the game world is some type of desert, having just a 'desert' terrain type is very boring. It also doesn't appropriately model the variety of arid terrains found in the real world. I don't have the conversion doc in front of me, but I imagine the new terrain types of which you speak are all straight out 2E Dark Sun: sandy wastes, stony barrens, rocky badlands, salt flats, etc. It wouldn't be much of a conversion if they did away with the integral elements of the original.
 


But from the 'you can't use other rules with this unless we say so' insular stance

Hmmm . . . I didn't get that impression from the doc itself.

questionable balance (feats that replicate about 2nd level spells?!)

Imbalanced feats are easily rectified by adding tougher prereqs. Specifically, which feats are you refering to?

the glut of new weapons that could've been better represented (an alak is a weird-lookin' mace, a carrikal is just a battle axe or great axe with inferior materials

I'll agree somewhat here. Most of the weapons could be derrived from existing weapons with altered materials. Your carrikal example fits as well. The weapon choices are presented as additional flavor. They could easily be dropped or altered without more than a moment of thought.

the lack of telling me how to make my character a defiler or preserver (they go into length describing them, but no where do they say where to make the choice

Nowhere in the PHB or DMG does it say where to make the choice of being a wizard or a sorceror. What exactly are you hoping for? (I'm asking honestly, not being condescending here).

how defiling affects the area, or even if this 'great skill' that preservers need make them a PrC of some type

Hmmm . . . defiler ash radius is fully explained on page 45, top of the 2nd column under Corruption of Power.

Unfortunately we get a bit of a jipped delay on PrCs. They were not slated for release with the core doc.

to the 'let's introduce new terrain for no great reason', to being somewhat exclusionary

Athas doesn't have the same type of landface and terrain types as other worlds. Its not done ' for no good reason'. Your not going to find jungles on Mars, nor will you find many on Athas either. In a generic fantasy setting, the desert terrain type covers most of the 'alternate' or 'specific' terrain types on Athas. However, anyone who has ever lived in an arid region knows that deserts are far more than just sand dunes. Since 80%+ of Athas is technically desert, in order not to be bland, the various types of desert environments are broken up into specific terrain types such as scrub plains, badlands, etc.

The comments and even criticisms are much appreciated. Its good to see some oposing viewpoints to freshen things up. Keep em coming.
 
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Since it's helpin', I'll defend my mild criticisms. :)

1. The "Don't use any rules but ours" insular nature (which is probably my BIGGEST gripe) is illustrated in a few places...the races are the first culprit with "only the bonuses and penalties described here," meaning that if someone is, say, an Aarakocra from Faerun and they meet an Athesian Aarakocra, they could be stubtly to wildly different. That fits somewhat in the flavor of the setting, but also at the same time limits it. I haven't extensively checked the mechanics, so I'm not sure how different they are. It's kinda like, yeah, Athesian halflings are different from any other halfling race...but what if I, as the all-powerful DM, like regular halflings and want to include them in the campaign? Are there going to be balance concerns? Am I going to destroy the flavor so much that the update teem says 'you're on your own, man. Good luck.'

It goes on with 'athesian versions' of basic classes (such as the Bard).....was the Bard really so bad that I can't play a PHB bard in Athas? Is a singing and dancing halfling too out of the league of Dark Sun to support? Also, the lack of certain classes (why couldn't the Sorcerer be adopted to the Athesian spellcasting method?) makes me wonder...

Monsters continue it. The Braxat in the MM2 is flawed in some way, I guess...because the 'athesian version' is the right one, for the world. Use another one, and it'd be like using bardic halflings or a gnome paladin -- inappropriate. What might be more useful, I would think, is telling me how to give what exists Athesian flavor, rather than telling me to ignore what exists and only follow these rules.

Weapons are symptomatic of it, too...that many variations on that many themes....why? I can understand a glut of strange exotic weapons for the gladiators (and would feel a bit left down without it :)), but why would you need to whip up new weapon statistics for a jawbone on a stick that couldn't already be done with a greatclub or a greataxe? It makes me think that there must be some special significance to that, when none really comes accross in the information presented...at least, none that wouldn't also come accross with simply the note: "A carrikal functions like a greataxe made of inferior materials." In addition, this makes feats and proficiencies a bit wonky. If I'm proficient in a greataxe, why can't I use a carrikal? If I can swing a morningstar, why not an alak? Are they THAT different?

Maybe I'm asking too much though. Or maybe it's just presentation. That's entirely likely. I'd just like maybe a sidebar, an entry, SOMETHING on what to do with the basic PHB as it is, and how one may integrate that. I guess it's the whole 'options, not restrictions.' While I understand that a campaign setting has to have some restrictions, or else loose it's flavor, advice or a minor alteration on the races or classes seems much more useful to me than rewriting the book with 'em.

2. Preserver/Defiler distinction. Well, for starters, I'd like something in the class description telling me which class I am. It's kind of along the lines of "for my class, I'm a wizard..." and the class description specifies nothing beyond that. They mention the defiler/preserver dichotomy, but they never say one must choose in clear, defined, rulespeak. I could make an Athesian Wizard and the only rule the document tells me I need to know when making the class is that my spellbook should be concealed. You'd think if there were game rule changes to what a wizard would have to do, they'd be listed under game rule information....? I mean, it's probably there, but it's hardly clear cut or definate, and I still don't know if I may be missing something....do I say I'm a Preserver and then just not have to deal with the defiling? Or vice-versa? Or is there a feat to take? Do they mutli-class? Or do all 'wizards' use one or the other? It's a stumbling block to understanding what is a fairly fundamental change in the rules.

In addition, the Arcane Magic area, which seems to be the perfect place to list this info, has terrain modifiers for defiling and info that Athesian wizards are either preservers or defilers, and that preservers risk temptation by the 'dark side,' as it were. Nothing on the choice, nothing on the dedication, nothing on the damage.

3. Feats. Specifically, I'm referring to the Freedom feat, which basically gives someone a big advantage that it takes about a second-level spell to duplicate (compare to Haste, which does basically likewise, but adds more...so take away those random Haste bonuses, and still keep the extra action...1st-2nd level spell). It'd be like saying 'because you're from City XYZ, you can gain the ability to cast Magic Missile once per day.' And honestly, just a few quesitonable things like that raise questions about everything.

4. Terrains. I guess....the main question I'd have is that are rocky badlands really that different, mechanically, than 'desert'? Or salt flats? It's all well and good to add this new richness, but it clunks things up a little bit, and invalidates the 'default' rules. I could see it on the monsters, maybe under geography....but would there really be a pressing need for the difference between a salt flat and an obsidian plain? Both are big chunks of burning something, endless to the horizon...is there a NEED for that added complexity? I think in the monster descriptions, and geography, maybe...but to have greater rules effects puts me off...

In Closing: Again, I must thank the team for the hard work they put into it. Like I said, it's definately more good than ill, just a few things that glare at me the wrong way. :) I like it, and I thiank you.
 

I get the impression I can't really use a good chunk of this without some hose rules.
I like inadvertently appropriate typos. :D I'm sure many house rules do exactly that...

(That's not to say your house rules wouldn't be good, by the way.)
I guess it's the whole 'options, not restrictions.
Such "New Age D&D" notions should be kept out of Athas, IMO. Designers, I salute you for not giving gnome paladin pollution and other nastiness the time of day on Athasian sands.
 
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1. The "Don't use any rules but ours" insular nature (which is probably my BIGGEST gripe) is illustrated in a few places...the races are the first culprit with "only the bonuses and penalties described here," meaning that if someone is, say, an Aarakocra from Faerun and they meet an Athesian Aarakocra, they could be stubtly to wildly different. That fits somewhat in the flavor of the setting, but also at the same time limits it. I haven't extensively checked the mechanics, so I'm not sure how different they are. It's kinda like, yeah, Athesian halflings are different from any other halfling race...but what if I, as the all-powerful DM, like regular halflings and want to include them in the campaign? Are there going to be balance concerns? Am I going to destroy the flavor so much that the update teem says 'you're on your own, man. Good luck.'

Okay, I'm not on the design team or anything, but I do know that they were/are creating a 3e conversion of the old 2e DS material. In the old DS, stats for races were through the roof (5-20) and intentionally racial bonuses and penalties for certain races were altered to give them a whole different feel. I agree that the doc should stress a little that the races presented (as well as classes and such) are balanced against the core rules. Therefore, though the feral little cannibals may still be different from say those halflings from FR, there wouldn't be any problems just transposing your own versions of such races (or monsters, or such).

It wouldn't quite be balance concerns, but generic halfings would be a complete flavor crush, but as with any setting, what you do in your game is your thing. The team is not 'creating', they're converting. The bard example then, is the team's best attempt at converting the original DS bard. Don't like it? Don't use it. Once again, its a flavor thing. Yes, a troubador style swashbuckling lute strumming poet is very out of place, unless of course you feel otherwise for your game. So would tree hugging happy go lucky elves, etc.

What might be more useful, I would think, is telling me how to give what exists Athesian flavor, rather than telling me to ignore what exists and only follow these rules.

Can't argue with you there. Since the material that the athas.org team is going to be comming out with will likely be at a much slower pace than a full fledged company may produce, it would have been nice to have a page or two devoted to DMs to give a bit of direction with fleshing out DS for their own game.

Weapons are symptomatic of it, too...that many variations on that many themes....why? I can understand a glut of strange exotic weapons for the gladiators (and would feel a bit left down without it ), but why would you need to whip up new weapon statistics for a jawbone on a stick that couldn't already be done with a greatclub or a greataxe? It makes me think that there must be some special significance to that, when none really comes accross in the information presented...at least, none that wouldn't also come accross with simply the note: "A carrikal functions like a greataxe made of inferior materials." In addition, this makes feats and proficiencies a bit wonky. If I'm proficient in a greataxe, why can't I use a carrikal? If I can swing a morningstar, why not an alak? Are they THAT different?

I think this is a symptom of 3e nixing the idea of weapon groups. Just about any slight variance in a weapon means a new weapon stat. Its rather a core precedence that I don't think the team would be allowed to delve into (they were given guidlines to follow by WOTC on the project, in return for being able to use DS flavor text and non SRD resources).

I'm a Preserver and then just not have to deal with the defiling? Or vice-versa? Or is there a feat to take? Do they mutli-class? Or do all 'wizards' use one or the other? It's a stumbling block to understanding what is a fairly fundamental change in the rules

After rereading the innitial section, I have to agree that the differentiation is a bit vague. It does in fact need clarified that both follow the same rules a regular wizard. That the difference between one and the other is how spells are cast. They are the same class, but one defiles and one does not.

are rocky badlands really that different, mechanically, than 'desert'? Or salt flats? It's all well and good to add this new richness, but it clunks things up a little bit, and invalidates the 'default' rules.

Ever live in Arizona, or Utah, or Nevada? Ask someone from there if the 'desert' they live in is nothing but rolling sand dunes. If you created a world entirely covered in one huge forest, wouldn't you differentiate the 'forest' a bit, or would you have just that one default from the core rules terrain? You'd probably split it up a bit with light forests, jungles (which are nothing more than tropical forests, so technically, under your view, jungles could be nixed from the core for simplicity).

Well, and I hope I'm getting the right impression here, your saying that the doc is not very 'user friendly' in some regards (like flavor, wizards and magic) and contains a few redundancies (such as weapons) and perhaps a few balance issues (though I highly doubt that one extra partial action once per day is that unbalancing after looking through some of the regional feats in the FRCS).

You make some interesting points. Type up a proposal and send it over to the official team at athas.org and see what they think of your suggestions. Or head over to the DS boards at Wizards.com and post them up there. Who knows, maybe they'll agree with you on some of that. I do ;)
 

For the races "only the bonuses and penalties described here".

We put that there so people don't apply the PHB modifiers AND the ones we present in the DS3 rules. Nothing more. :)

Can't argue with you there. Since the material that the athas.org team is going to be comming out with will likely be at a much slower pace than a full fledged company may produce, it would have been nice to have a page or two devoted to DMs to give a bit of direction with fleshing out DS for their own game.

We're working on that, and it will be included in the 3.5 version. This document is the "almost complete" version.

The new weapons are an attempt to put flavor into the setting. Since metal is rare, Athasians have had to come up with different weapons over the years. Even though some have the same stats, I think it's much more flavorful to say "I swing my bone carrikal" than saying "I swing my great axe". But nothing is forcing you to use the new weapons. Don't like them; don't use them. Most of these weapons appeared in some AD&D Dark Sun supplement. We just converted them and put them all in one place. :)

I agree, the wizard section on preserving and defiling needs clarification. Thanks for that. Sometimes, things that are obvious to us (since we've been working on them for so long) aren't obvious to others, and so we don't do a proper job of explaining.

And feel free to send any comments to Gab@athas.org or Flip@athas.org.
 


I'm not a big fan of the way they've handled the divine spellcasters (especially the cleric), though it might fit the D&D3 approach better.

Let me explain: in AD&D Dark Sun, they used the AD&D concept of spheres for priests. However, they didn't use the regular AD&D spheres, but instead they expanded the elemental spheres a bit and put all the other spells in the Sphere of Cosmos. Then clerics got minor access to Cosmos and major access to their elemental sphere. This meant that a significant part of their spell arsenal, especially at high levels (since minor access only went to 3rd level), was dependent on their element.

However, like regular 3e clerics, DS3 clerics have one big spell list in common and get to choose two domains from those their element grants. This means that clerics of different elements are more alike one another than in 2e (though I just realized that it does mean a bit more variety among clerics of the same element), and I don't like that.

They've also basically made templars into divine-casting sorcerers, which is the opposite of what they were in AD&D - they had access to all priestly spells (except for a handful specifically denied them), but fewer spells per day. And finally, the druid no longer have their specific elemental ties based on their guarded land.
 

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