Dark Sun 3E rules

[Henry]

Some of the races however, like the half-giant and thri-kreen, are far more powerful than your typical human and follow the ECL and LA rules. I'm still trying to push for the option to begin any race at 1st lvl (by way of the Savage Species racial builds), but I'm not sure if they are allowed to do that due to their agreement with WOTC to make it as 'core rules' friendly as possible. For now though, its just nice that its mostly finished.

To be honest, that is a spot where Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed rules on "Racial Levels" is SCREAMING to be applied. Heck, he already has Giants done for the DS3E team! And since his rules on that are OGL, they wouldn't have the same level of difficulty as, say, the savage species material has.

 

[Staffan]

The thing is that while flavor is very important, I feel that they should be giving me advice on how to preserve and maintain that flavor, and not saying 'don't use this!'

The thing is that unlike OA that you compare DS with below, Dark Sun is not a generic milieu. It's a specific setting, one that is as much defined by what is missing as what is present.

Let's take something that we're not supposed to use in general in dark sun...say...Sorcerers. Now if I have a player who likes sorcerers and wants to play them, I have to tell them 'tough noogies, mate!' And someone plays a character they're not as interested in because I like the setting. I may suggest they play a wizard, or a templar, but that's not really the same is it? Where's the blood of dragons? Where's the charismatic miracle-workers? Where's the 'natural magic'?

There are many reasons why there shouldn't be sorcerers around in Dark Sun:

• Setting history. A big deal is made out of the invention of wizardly magic. Before that, the only sources for supernatural powers were psionics and clerical/elemental magic.
• Wizards being persecuted is another big thing in the setting, which means wizards have to go to some lengths in order to hide their wizardness. It's a lot easier to hide being a sorcerer, on account of not having a spellbook.

These are not a matter of "sorcerers don't fit savage deserts", they're a matter of "sorcerers don't fit Dark Sun."

What I could have used instead of 'don't play sorcerers' is advice on how to integrate a sorcerer into the campaign without loosing flavor. Something perhaps like 'a group of preservers have bonded so closely with the magical energies running through themselves that they have learned to cast spells without spellbooks. Many may call themselves psions to allay suspicion, but they are arcane casters and not psionic.'

Does that violate the flavor of DS? Does that rape the setting of integrity? Does that hurt the campaign?

I think it does. Magical energies don't generally "run through" wizards except when they're actually casting spells.

To compare it to OA, take a look at the 'other races' section of the Races chapter....there are the PHB races, laid out fully, with the instructions for infusing them into an OA campaign. They don't say 'they are not allowed, use only our races!' they say 'they don't really match the flavor...but here's how to do it if you want to.'

There's a difference between how OA treats the general "oriental" milieu and how it treats Rokugan. It is rather strict regarding what exists and what doesn't in Rokugan, but more loose and "here's how you could do it" for the general orientality. Dark Sun is more like Rokugan in this case.

Also, some of the DS rules remove niches that people would want to fill...so the Bard is removed....who sings in the taverns or tells stories around the campfire? Who's the DS 'jack of all trades, master of none'? Or why doesn't Dark Sun have one of those types of characters? And what should players who like those types of characters do instead?

There are bards in the setting - they're just not very similar to traditional D&D bards. Most notably, they don't get magic - because arcane magic is the exclusive province of wizards. For players who like to play traditional bards, well, why not try something else for a change? I've never understood the mentality that always plays the same kind of character, so they won't be getting any sympathy from me.

Can I not use a new weapon or new spell or new monster because that would destroy the flavor of the setting?

Depends on if it fits the flavor of the setting or not. Traditional bards and sorcerers don't.

Instead, tell me how I can perhaps play a Bilbo-like character that IS appropriate for the setting (a savage halfling that someone has domesticated?), or at least why Bilbo isn't allowed.

Bilbo isn't allowed because halflings in Dark Sun are man-eating savages living in the big jungle to the west of the mountain range that keeps most people in the Tyr region from going to explore the more fertile area over there (and the reason it's more fertile is that there haven't been anywhere near as many defilers around there).

As for why the other races don't exist, it's because they were killed off in a series of genocidal wars in the ancient history of the setting. Nowadays people don't know of this, because the people in charge (the sorcerer-kings) are the same people who lead the victorious side in these Cleansing Wars, and they've been quite efficient in suppressing that bit of history for the last 2000 years.

 

[Henry]

Before anyone asks, the term "sorcerer king" is a flavor term only that describes the Kings of the various city-states of Athas. It had no game connotation, other than to say that they were all dual-classed defiler/psions of amazing power, who were all under various stages of the transformation into dragons. The only one who "made it" all the way to full dragon was THE Dragon.

 

[woodelf]

There are many reasons why there shouldn't be sorcerers around in Dark Sun:

• Setting history. A big deal is made out of the invention of wizardly magic. Before that, the only sources for supernatural powers were psionics and clerical/elemental magic.
• Wizards being persecuted is another big thing in the setting, which means wizards have to go to some lengths in order to hide their wizardness. It's a lot easier to hide being a sorcerer, on account of not having a spellbook.

These are not a matter of "sorcerers don't fit savage deserts", they're a matter of "sorcerers don't fit Dark Sun."

Also, psions and sorcerers pretty much fill the same niche, having very similar feels in play, and access to many of the same capabilities. With D&D3E psionics, which allow all sorts of things that psychic powers traditionally don't, you can just play a psion if you want the "guy who draws his power from within." Really, i think having psion and sorcerer (or psychic warrior and monk) in the same setting is a mistake. And Dark Sun *definitely* has psions.

For players who like to play traditional bards, well, why not try something else for a change?

For players who like to play traditional bards, try Monte Cook's alternate bard--D&D3E doesn't have anything like a "traditional bard"--it has a hedge wizard who plays the lute. [sorry, pet peeve: the D&D3E bard is teh least bard-like bard class of any D&D edition]

 

[EArly]

For anyone not familar with DS a good reference to get a quick feel for why things are different is to read over the timeline that is one the wizards site.

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/DStimeline.rtf

It tell's you why alot of races arent around anymore.

 

[Kesh]

An alternative for Sorcerers is that, by nature, they are Defilers. By drawing upon natural skills, rather than studying for years to harness arcane energies, they only have access to the 'easy path' to start with.

As they gain levels, perhaps they could be given a choice of special abilities: one which enhances their Defiling power, or one which allows them limited Preserver casting (as a metamagic feat, perhaps). Like the Ranger's archery/two-weapon abilities, they would have to choose one or the other when they get their first bonus ability, and stick with it. The only way to change would be multiclassing into a Wizard or perhaps a PrC.

In fact, a Sorcerer-specific PrC might be good for those who want to become Preservers. Make it require spontaneous casting and be accessible at a reasonable level (say, 6 to 8), and allow them to gain the ability to cast as Preservers.

Either way, it helps balance the fact they don't carry spellbooks and are likely to Eschew Materials off the bat. When they do cast a spell, it's going to defile (at low levels, at least).

 

[woodelf]

broken PDF?

hey, what flavor of PDF is the Dark Sun 3E download? I get all sorts of errors in it, and several pages therefore refuse to render (such as the 2nd page of Cleric, which is what i was trying to look up). I'm using Acrobat Reader 5.1 (and tried full Acrobat 5.0.5). I'm guessing it was generated either with a buggy third-party or with Acrobat 6. If the latter, they should really save it to be compatible with older versions of Acrobat--at least v5, maybe v4--because v6 of Acrobat Reader isn't out for all platforms yet.

edit: Still not sure what the problem was, but opening it with Acrobat [ful] and resaving it as a new file cleaned it up--so i'm leaning towards newer file that my version of Acrobat has issues with.

 

[Mach2.5]

edit: Still not sure what the problem was, but opening it with Acrobat [ful] and resaving it as a new file cleaned it up--so i'm leaning towards newer file that my version of Acrobat has issues with

You may very well have a small glitch or coruption in your version of Acrobat. If that tweak works for you, kewl, otherwise I've opened the file with 2 readers and 1 full (4.0, 5.?, and 5.? resepctively) and not had a problem (all on different comps).

If anyone else is having issues with the pdf being corrupted, please email someone from Athas.org and let them know about it.

An alternative for Sorcerers is that, by nature, they are Defilers

Sounds interesting. Any chance of you doing a full scale write up based on your ideas? I'm personally against sorcies in DS, but I know others who think it would be great and I'm definately not against the inclusion of more options for players.

 

[Mach2.5]

Before anyone asks, the term "sorcerer king" is a flavor term only that describes the Kings of the various city-states of Athas. It had no game connotation, other than to say that they were all dual-classed defiler/psions of amazing power,

To avoid confusion on this, I'd advise changing the name of any sorcorer class to something more fitting for DS. Not sure what, but an example was Nathan Guest's version of a DS monk renamed as a mystic, simply to throw off the quasi oriental conotation of the monk (in the end though, the class turned out fairly different and distinct anyhow . . . ).

 

[woodelf]

This is a total and blantant oversight of te obvious. The core team is doing a little reworking of the text to clarify things a little more for those unfamiliar with te setting (it was so obvious to all of us because we all have been playing DS for so long that it took someone who wasn't familiar with the setting to notice the gross error). To clarify though, defilers and preservers are mechanically 100% similar. They use the same advancement tables (since the team is required to use the one in the PHB and not the one from 2e), the same spell progression tables, etc. The beefed up feats will be made available for any wizard, but they will only provide enhancements to a wizard who chooses to defile. Should a wizard defile too much and too often, he will no longer be able to cast a spell without defiling. The difference is no longer between the wizard, but in how the wizard casts his spells (i.e. wether he defiles while casting or not).

There's a current topic on clerics on the wizard boards about trying to make clerics a little more 'elemental' and less 'priestly (found in this thread, where the current line of thought is spontaneous casting of elemental spells instead of cures). ... I wouldn't want to ditch 'essential' spells just to be more elemental.
A spellcaster who is 1 level below a standard wizard is a spellcaster that is not likely to be played, not without some serious benefits. I'm not sure exactly what would those benefits would be to make the class more enticing to play though, or compensate for what would end up being a major crutch. Adding metamagic feats as class skills is rather tricky though and would more likely overpower the wizard in the end. As for new ones, how about some suggestions?

I doubt illithids would make the list, but I like them too much and am including them in my game

Actually, weren't mind flayers of a sort in the original dark sun (box set, MC appendix, or Dragon Kings?).

Ok, clerics:
Definitely, spontaneous casting of spells of their element [and the two adjacent, at higher levels] would be the way to go, IMHO, Also, i'd cut down the list of non-domain spells as much as possible, shoving everything you possibly could into the elemental domains. And then make it a class ability to add more domains at higher levels. By 20th level, a DS cleric should have access to all 4 domains for her element, be able to spontaneously cast any spell known of her domain or the two adjacent, and have increased save DCs and bonuses to their own saves. This should be balanced by a restricted list of non-elemental spells. They're elementalists, dammit! And, if you iinclude epic level stuff, stick with the "becoming an elemental" thing for clerics.

'Nother possible cleric idea: something about summoning/talking with elementals--see the Greenbond or Totem Warrior class in Arcana Unearthed for some mechanical ideas, if you need them.

Or, maybe skip that and give druids a talking-to-the-spirits-of-the-land ability, instead of the shapechanging?

No point in sorcerers
1: you've got psions--basically the same niche
2: [arcane] magic is an invention in Athas, rather than an inherent thing
3: magic in Athas is about drawing on outside sources--psionics is about drawing on personal power
4: the no spellbooks thing strikes me as a dealbreaker for DS, in terms of both balance and flavor
5: you already have two styles of magic (preserver, defiler), they're just not the same two (prepared, spontaneous) of core D&D

Now, on preservers/defilers:
They *shouldn't* be balanced in raw power, but should instead be balanced in some other way. RPing is part of it (a defiler (1) gives herself away when she casts and (2) is gonna be even *more* persecuted). Not sure what else to do.

Anyway, i'd give the defilers some significant advantage--perhaps spontaneous metamagic use? Or the first 2 levels of increase for powering metamagic are free? Personally, i think that characters should basically be either pure preservers, or not--no middle ground. That is, the guy who defiles all the time is a defiler. The guy who never defiles is a preserver. But the guy who just defiles once in a while is *not* a preserver--whatever benefits are gained, he doesn't get them. Maybe mimic the darkside in WEG Star Wars: big power boosts, but you can't not do it after a while.

Look at it historically: the sorcerers of Athas didn't choose defiling over preserving 'cause they *wanted* to destroy life as we know it. They did it because the benifits outweighed the costs (at least in the short term, and to their perspective). So, reflect this mechanically--you get some kind of tangible, game-mechanical benifit for being a defiler. Preserver should be the road less-travelled, and a tough choice to stick to. But with some cool (if more flavorful than powerful) advantages.