Dark Sun Campaign Setting: Some clarifications required

[Jhaelen]

Since I starting reading the themes chapter I noticed a couple of powers (and other stuff) that make me wonder how they're supposed to work. Since there's no errata on any of them yet, I thought, maybe this would be a good place to collect them.

1) Insidious Poison (p.39):

Hit: 2[W] + ability modifier damage, and ongoing 5 poison damage (save ends). The first time the target takes the ongoing poison damage, the target cannot make a saving throw against the ongoing poison damage on its turn.

a) Is this supposed to cancel abilities that grant additional saves (against ongoing damage)?
b) Or is it supposed to cancel the first regular save?
c) How does it interact with abilities that allow the target to automatically end an effect that a save could end?


2) Noxious Strike (p.41): The Hit description includes the following part:

[...]If the target willingly moves more than 2 squares or makes an attack, it is subject to one of the following effects:[...]

Technically, I think, it is not defined who gets to choose the effect, though I assume the attacker chooses. If so, the power's text should say so. Or is there a general rule for powers with variable effects? There are several other powers in the book with the same issue.


3) Desert Skirmish (p.44): The Effect description includes the following:

[...]Until the start of your next turn, any enemy that willingly moves to a square adjacent to the target must stop moving.

Will this just stop the current movement action or does it also prevent the target from taking another action to move?


4) Spirit of Athas (p.46): The Effect doesn't mention how long the conjured spirit will last if it is not dismissed. Considering it's an encounter power, I'd guess it will last 'until the end of your next turn', but who knows?


5) Primordial Retribution (p.47):

Effect: You conjure four tortured elementals in four different squares. The elementals last until the end of the encounter. As a standard action, you can make the following melee 1 attack from each elemental's square.
Target: One, two, three, or four creatures, each adjacent to at least one tortured elemental.

Does this really mean I get to potentially attack 16 creatures, four from each square?


6) On page 47 there is a sidebar that is really easy to overlook that includes important details applying to every conjuration power of the Elemental Priest. Now, I guess, they meant to save some space, but really, this _must_ be included in the power text, otherwise it won't show up anywhere in the Character Builder!


7) Halo of Destruction (p.52): This feature allows you to deal damage equal to your Strength modifier under certain conditions.

I think this is rather odd, since everywhere else Themes use the Primary Ability rather than a specific ability. So, is this intentional or an error?


8) Fettering Glare (p.63): The flavour text doesn't match the power's effect:

[...]The manacles draw an effect or blight affecting one of your allies away from him.

What the Effect really does is to allow an ally to roll twice on one attack roll.


9) Defiling Alacrity (p.64), and Enemies to Ashes (p.64): Both powers require a Standard Action to activate and allow you to use one of your at-will powers as a free action.
Maybe I'm missing something, but what's the point of this? At the very least 'Defiling Alacrity' is misnamed and the fluff doesn't describe the power's real effect.

Sure they add a benefit when using the at-will power, but why aren't these instead free actions that are triggered when using an at-will power? That would be much clearer.

All in all, 'Master Defiler' is probably the most pathetic paragon path I've seen so far. However, I haven't seen what the standard effect of defiling is, so maybe I'm missing an important part of the picture.

That's it for now. I hope I haven't missed anything. I hope to add more when I've read farther.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Since I starting reading the themes chapter I noticed a couple of powers (and other stuff) that make me wonder how they're supposed to work. Since there's no errata on any of them yet, I thought, maybe this would be a good place to collect them.

1) Insidious Poison (p.39):

Hit: 2[W] + ability modifier damage, and ongoing 5 poison damage (save ends). The first time the target takes the ongoing poison damage, the target cannot make a saving throw against the ongoing poison damage on its turn.

a) Is this supposed to cancel abilities that grant additional saves (against ongoing damage)?
b) Or is it supposed to cancel the first regular save?
c) How does it interact with abilities that allow the target to automatically end an effect that a save could end?

Clarity would be nice. IMO, you should follow RAW, subject to DM fiat. In that case, it would cancel the first "incoming" saving throw, and would have no effect if the poison damage is "automatically" removed.

2) Noxious Strike (p.41): The Hit description includes the following part:

[...]If the target willingly moves more than 2 squares or makes an attack, it is subject to one of the following effects:[...]

Technically, I think, it is not defined who gets to choose the effect, though I assume the attacker chooses. If so, the power's text should say so. Or is there a general rule for powers with variable effects? There are several other powers in the book with the same issue.

I assume so. (I also assume the attacker chooses which effect when they announce they are using the effect, under the "common sense" rule, I guess.)

3) Desert Skirmish (p.44): The Effect description includes the following:

[...]Until the start of your next turn, any enemy that willingly moves to a square adjacent to the target must stop moving.

Will this just stop the current movement action or does it also prevent the target from taking another action to move?

Just my opinion, but the victim is free to move anywhere except adjacent to the target.

4) Spirit of Athas (p.46): The Effect doesn't mention how long the conjured spirit will last if it is not dismissed. Considering it's an encounter power, I'd guess it will last 'until the end of your next turn', but who knows?

That drove me up the wall at first. Based on what other similar encounter powers do, I think you are right about duration. (Only daily powers would last longer.)

5) Primordial Retribution (p.47):

Effect: You conjure four tortured elementals in four different squares. The elementals last until the end of the encounter. As a standard action, you can make the following melee 1 attack from each elemental's square.
Target: One, two, three, or four creatures, each adjacent to at least one tortured elemental.

Does this really mean I get to potentially attack 16 creatures, four from each square?

No. Melee 1 is just a range 1 melee attack (eg no reach). You could attack four creatures, but that's it.

6) On page 47 there is a sidebar that is really easy to overlook that includes important details applying to every conjuration power of the Elemental Priest. Now, I guess, they meant to save some space, but really, this _must_ be included in the power text, otherwise it won't show up anywhere in the Character Builder!

I don't have the builder. Is Dark Sun stuff even in there?

7) Halo of Destruction (p.52): This feature allows you to deal damage equal to your Strength modifier under certain conditions.

I think this is rather odd, since everywhere else Themes use the Primary Ability rather than a specific ability. So, is this intentional or an error?

Dunno. What is the "flavor" of the class feature?

8) Fettering Glare (p.63): The flavour text doesn't match the power's effect:

[...]The manacles draw an effect or blight affecting one of your allies away from him.

What the Effect really does is to allow an ally to roll twice on one attack roll.

Whoops. Rules trump flavor when talking rules text. (I think that exact flavor text is elsewhere too, so it could be a copy-and-paste error. But don't quote me on that.)

9) Defiling Alacrity (p.64), and Enemies to Ashes (p.64): Both powers require a Standard Action to activate and allow you to use one of your at-will powers as a free action.
Maybe I'm missing something, but what's the point of this? At the very least 'Defiling Alacrity' is misnamed and the fluff doesn't describe the power's real effect.

Sure they add a benefit when using the at-will power, but why aren't these instead free actions that are triggered when using an at-will power? That would be much clearer.

Yes, it would be clearer. I need to look up those effects.

All in all, 'Master Defiler' is probably the most pathetic paragon path I've seen so far. However, I haven't seen what the standard effect of defiling is, so maybe I'm missing an important part of the picture.

I haven't really looked at any paragon paths, but in this case I can give a brief overview of Arcane Defiling:

You can re-roll an arcane power attack or damage roll, at a cost: all allies within 20 squares suffer 5 necrotic damage. (The defiler is, notably, unaffected.) That's in the Character Options section.

 

[Spatula]

1) Insidious Poison (p.39):

Hit: 2[W] + ability modifier damage, and ongoing 5 poison damage (save ends). The first time the target takes the ongoing poison damage, the target cannot make a saving throw against the ongoing poison damage on its turn.

a) Is this supposed to cancel abilities that grant additional saves (against ongoing damage)?
b) Or is it supposed to cancel the first regular save?
c) How does it interact with abilities that allow the target to automatically end an effect that a save could end?

Looks like A. It says the target cannot make a saving throw vs the effect on the first turn of the effect, once the target has taken the ongoing damage. That's pretty plain language, and B is reading extra intent into it. So extra saves that happen before damage takes place are fine. Removing an effect isn't the same as saving against it.

3) Desert Skirmish (p.44): The Effect description includes the following:

[...]Until the start of your next turn, any enemy that willingly moves to a square adjacent to the target must stop moving.

Will this just stop the current movement action or does it also prevent the target from taking another action to move?

It's the same language as the fighter's combat superiority, minus the "If it still has actions remaining..." sentence. So I would say it just cancels that move action.

4) Spirit of Athas (p.46): The Effect doesn't mention how long the conjured spirit will last if it is not dismissed.

Yeah, this drove me nuts. Such a basic oversight.

5) Primordial Retribution (p.47):

Effect: You conjure four tortured elementals in four different squares. The elementals last until the end of the encounter. As a standard action, you can make the following melee 1 attack from each elemental's square.
Target: One, two, three, or four creatures, each adjacent to at least one tortured elemental.

Does this really mean I get to potentially attack 16 creatures, four from each square?

No, you can attack 1-4 creatures, like the target line says. You just have four potential origin points for the attack.

6) On page 47 there is a sidebar that is really easy to overlook that includes important details applying to every conjuration power of the Elemental Priest. Now, I guess, they meant to save some space, but really, this _must_ be included in the power text, otherwise it won't show up anywhere in the Character Builder!

Aren't those just the updated conjuration rules from PHB2?

9) Defiling Alacrity (p.64), and Enemies to Ashes (p.64): Both powers require a Standard Action to activate and allow you to use one of your at-will powers as a free action.
Maybe I'm missing something, but what's the point of this? At the very least 'Defiling Alacrity' is misnamed and the fluff doesn't describe the power's real effect.

Sure they add a benefit when using the at-will power, but why aren't these instead free actions that are triggered when using an at-will power? That would be much clearer.

They're the same as the Academy Master paragon path's attacks, which also upgrade at-wills. Personally I prefer the way that they are worded. It's much cleaner. If it was a trigger, it would have to be a free action, and then you'd have to put in a 1/turn max restriction so that you couldn't stack them up on one spell, and then you'd have to specify that it can only be used on your turn.

All in all, 'Master Defiler' is probably the most pathetic paragon path I've seen so far. However, I haven't seen what the standard effect of defiling is, so maybe I'm missing an important part of the picture.

Looks pretty good to me. When you defile, you can reroll an attack roll or a damage roll - normally it can only be used with daily spells. Your allies also take damage when you do it, but if you're going down this path, your allies are either ok with that or they've taken the feats to reduce its impact on them.

So at 11th level, every time you defile, a non-minion takes 1/2 your healing surge value as damage. Since you can normally only defile with a daily spell, that's a nice effect but limited in its application. Except... you can defile with an at-will or encounter spell by spending an AP. And at 16th you can defile with an encounter spell 1/encounter. And you really put the hurt on something with Enemies to Ashes - every time you use defiling, it takes 1/2 of its healing surge value in damage!

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

There's a few other oversights. In the Dark Sun monsters book, the human wasteland raider's barbed spear ability is missing a lot of text (eg what happens when it hits; how much damage, etc). It says it can't be used if it's already been used to grab a target.

Another ability (gutting dagger) makes it obvious that barbed spear is supposed to grab the target (since gutting dagger can only be used on grabbed opponents).

But I suppose, overall, the book is pretty good about that.

 

[Jhaelen]

No. Melee 1 is just a range 1 melee attack (eg no reach). You could attack four creatures, but that's it.

Well, what I found confusing is that the power uses the word 'each' in the sentence before the attack block. It might be a foreign language problem. To me it would have been clearer if it was written thus:
As a standard action, you can make the following melee 1 attack:
Target: One, two, three, or four creatures, each adjacent to at least one tortured elemental.

I don't have the builder. Is Dark Sun stuff even in there?

Not yet. But IIRC, it doesn't include anything from sidebars.

Dunno. What is the "flavor" of the class feature?

I honestly have no idea. How is a 'halo' supposed to deal damage?! It just says
Whenever you bloody an enemy with an attack, each enemy adjacent to you [...] takes damage equal to your Strength modifier.
Since the feature works with every kind of attack, it strikes me as odd, that this should always use Strength. Imagine you're a wizard with the Gladiator theme who just bloodied someone with a magic missile...

Aren't those just the updated conjuration rules from PHB2?

Hmm, I don't know (I borrowed the book to one of my players ). The sidebar basically states that:

a) all of the conjurations occupy a square
b) all of them can be moved 5 squares using a move action

Particularly b) strikes me as a non-standard thing, but I might be wrong.

They're the same as the Academy Master paragon path's attacks, which also upgrade at-wills. Personally I prefer the way that they are worded. It's much cleaner.

Well,my major complaint is that the power's effect doesn't fit the name and flavour of the power. Where's the 'Alacrity'?

Your mastery of defiling with simple spells allows you to cast them with alarming quickness.

So, using a standard action instead of a standard action(!) is alarmingly quick?

I _know_ flavour text is irrelevant when determining game mechanics, but it and moreso the name of a power are part of the decision process when picking powers (at least they are for me), so it would be nice if they were actually descriptive of the power's effect.

Looks pretty good to me. When you defile, you can reroll an attack roll or a damage roll - normally it can only be used with daily spells. Your allies also take damage when you do it, but if you're going down this path, your allies are either ok with that or they've taken the feats to reduce its impact on them.

Okay, I've now reached that part of the book. Defiling does give some nice benefits.

Reading further I didn't discover any _new_ issues (but maybe I just didn't read it with as much concentration ).

One thing that left me wondering for a while was the Property of the Blood Obsidian Weapon (p.125):

When you use the arcane defiling power, you gain a +2 item bonus to the rerolled attack roll.

Since defiling (normally) only works for arcane daily powers I wondered how you could use a weapon for them. Then I remembered the Swordmage class. I suppose this is an item for them? Or is the Property supposed to work with implement powers, too?

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Well, what I found confusing is that the power uses the word 'each' in the sentence before the attack block. It might be a foreign language problem. To me it would have been clearer if it was written thus:

They say each so you know you can always set all four off. (Not saying each might confuse someone another way, thinking if you just attack with one, the others are wasted. I'm worried, too, that you could have four elementals surround one opponent and simultaneously attack them.)

 

[WalterKovacs]

The Blood Obsidian weapon can be put on a light blade or heavy blade

In addition to swordmages and sorcerors (who use daggers as implements), any arcane caster can get proficiency in those implements through a number of feats that would also let them use these weapons as implements. Also, the wording on the weapon doesn't require the wielder to be attacking through the weapon to benefit from that property. So a wizard with an orb in one hand and a blood obsidian dagger in the other hand would presumably get to benefit from the property anyway.

 

[Jhaelen]

So a wizard with an orb in one hand and a blood obsidian dagger in the other hand would presumably get to benefit from the property anyway.

Hmm, that's what I feared. Haven't all items that added such a bonus without actually requiring to use the weapon/implement in the attack been errataed?

 

[Spatula]

Hmm, I don't know (I borrowed the book to one of my players ). The sidebar basically states that:

a) all of the conjurations occupy a square
b) all of them can be moved 5 squares using a move action

Particularly b) strikes me as a non-standard thing, but I might be wrong.

Ah, you are correct. Both are exceptions/additions to the normal conjuration rules. I agree that that stuff needs to be in the power description instead of a sidebar.