ONINOTAKI18
First Post
muffin_of_chaos said:
Yeah but he sounds bad ass, I would love to read a story about a half-giant with alignment issues that had the ability to kill everyone around him with a death field
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D&D 4E Dark Sun Conversion to 4E
- Thread starter Dausuul
- Start date
Yeah but he sounds bad ass, I would love to read a story about a half-giant with alignment issues that had the ability to kill everyone around him with a death field
So, a stab at a 4e...
MUL:
Ability Scores: +2 Str, +2 Con
Size: Medium
Speed: 6 squares
Vision: Normal
Languages: Common
Skill Bonuses: +2 Endurance
Gladiator Training: You gain proficiency with a simple, military, or superior weapon of your choice.
Great Fortitude: +1 Fortitude defense
Stubborn as a Mul (Mul Racial Power)
You just don’t know when to quit.
Encounter • Immeadiate Reaction
Effect: When you suffer an effect that allows for a save, you can make an immeadiate saving throw against that effect.
Notes: The "standard" races all get +2 to two different "defense" abilities, so getting +2 Str/Con is slightly weaker, although obviously pretty good for a warrior-type.
In any case, a bonus to Dex or any mental stat does not really make sense for the race.
The primary traits of muls are strength and toughness, and in particular that they keep going and going and going... In 2e terms this was related mainly to manual labor, forced marches, that kind of thing. For 4e it would need to be turned into a benefit useful in combat. So, they have better HP, surges, etc (higher Con), a great Fort defense (higher Con + race bonus), and have a better chance to throw off negative conditions with the racial power (stolen from hobgoblins). They're tough, but distinct from dwarves who are tough in a slightly different fashion (higher Con, healing surge as minor action, not easy to move, mostly immune to poison).
The weapon training gives them a little more flavor as the preferred race for gladiators (most muls are born into slavery to fight in the arena), although that might need to be tweaked if superior weapons are significantly better than military weapons.
MUL:
Ability Scores: +2 Str, +2 Con
Size: Medium
Speed: 6 squares
Vision: Normal
Languages: Common
Skill Bonuses: +2 Endurance
Gladiator Training: You gain proficiency with a simple, military, or superior weapon of your choice.
Great Fortitude: +1 Fortitude defense
Stubborn as a Mul (Mul Racial Power)
You just don’t know when to quit.
Encounter • Immeadiate Reaction
Effect: When you suffer an effect that allows for a save, you can make an immeadiate saving throw against that effect.
Notes: The "standard" races all get +2 to two different "defense" abilities, so getting +2 Str/Con is slightly weaker, although obviously pretty good for a warrior-type.
In any case, a bonus to Dex or any mental stat does not really make sense for the race.The primary traits of muls are strength and toughness, and in particular that they keep going and going and going... In 2e terms this was related mainly to manual labor, forced marches, that kind of thing. For 4e it would need to be turned into a benefit useful in combat. So, they have better HP, surges, etc (higher Con), a great Fort defense (higher Con + race bonus), and have a better chance to throw off negative conditions with the racial power (stolen from hobgoblins). They're tough, but distinct from dwarves who are tough in a slightly different fashion (higher Con, healing surge as minor action, not easy to move, mostly immune to poison).
The weapon training gives them a little more flavor as the preferred race for gladiators (most muls are born into slavery to fight in the arena), although that might need to be tweaked if superior weapons are significantly better than military weapons.
lots of good ideas. The books are coming soon enough so I'll hold off on the mechanics. Right now the focus should be on goals and design philosophy.
The Dark Sun fluff is incredible. That is why we all want to do a conversion in the first place. Thus making 4e fluff fit a Dark Sun world should be out of the question. Having dragonborn running around in Tyr is a horrible, horrible idea. You know what is cool about dragons in Dark Sun? That there is only one known dragon and a small group of secret dragons, and that these dragons are all humans worshipped as gods. A race of dragons just ruins this. Yes I know about the dray. The dray would be the focus of a campaign and so are kind of an exception. So what does this mean? It means that we need to implement the Dark Sun fluff and disregard 4e fluff completely.
The 2e Dark Sun mechanics were just that: mechanics. They existed for two reasons: the primary reason is to implement the Dark Sun fluff, and the secondary reason was to fix problems with the 2e rules. Our 4e mechanics should do the same thing. However since the 4e rules are new there are no known problems (there are problems with the 4e rules; we just don't know them yet). So rather than clinging to 2e rules (starting at 3rd level for example) we need to approach this from a 4e perspective.
So what are some of the results? Well the original boxed set had the following races:
Humans, Elves, Half Elves, Dwarves, Mul, Halflings, Half-Giants, Thri-kreen. I can see dropping Half-Giants and Thri-kreen down to NPC/monster status, especially Thri-kreen. Eladrin, Dragonborn, and Tieflings have no place in the DS fluff. Dragonborn might be usable as Dray, which means that the PCs will never see them. Tieflings could be used as mutants and would be considered entirely Human.
Classes are partially a mechanical invention, and partially fluff. Let's break it down by power source:
MARTIAL
4e: fighter, rogue, ranger, warlord
DS: fighter, rogue, gladiator, bard
ok for the most part this is easy. The gladiator can be covered by the 4e martial classes just fine. The warlord will also be fine in DS. The bard is a little tricky. It might be best implemented as a paragon path for rogues. Rangers cause a little problem as they fall under the Elemental powersource in DS
ARCANE
4e: wizard, warlock
DS: defiler, preserver
I think that it is pretty clear that the defiler and preserver should come from the wizard class and that the warlock should go. We should be able to change the warlock's power source to elemental without problems
DIVINE/ELEMENTAL
4e: cleric, paladin, (warlock)
DS: cleric, templar, druid, ranger
Using the cleric as the cleric is pretty obvious. Using the warlock for the druid and/or templar is also a pretty good move. Perhaps turning the paladin into an elemental warrior (with no devotion to goodness) would make some sense and allow for the DS ranger role to be filled, perhaps it wouldn't.
PSIONIC
4e:
DS: psionicist, wild talents
Well we have a serious problem here. Psionics are extremely important to the DS setting. Wild talents would be easy enough to handle by giving everyone either an encounter, daily, or even at will power from a short list. However there would also need to be a class for Psionicists. This one is tricky and would probably require a lot of design and development work. If a full class is made then wild talents are easy, give everyone the multiclass feat. Maybe Psionics are important enough that they should steal the wizard class mechanics.
Ok now on to some ideas. In keeping with 4e philosopy non-metal weapons would be the default; metal weapons would give a bonus. Likewise preservers would be the default PC arcanist. However from a setting point of view defiling would be more common, though still extremely rare. Preservers would suffer temptation to become defilers. Preservers could be just like normal wizards (the 2e approach) or they could have some minor benefits and penalties. In 2e they had a skill called Somatic Concealment which was basically slight-of-hand, and they had to be able to blend in. Maybe some free rogue skills at the expense of having to use healing surges to do some magic might work.
As for setting, of course it would have to be before the Prism Pentad. All of the background information from the books is good stuff, but it really doesn't work as a setting for the players if the Sorceror Kings start dying and democracy comes to Tyr.
The Dark Sun fluff is incredible. That is why we all want to do a conversion in the first place. Thus making 4e fluff fit a Dark Sun world should be out of the question. Having dragonborn running around in Tyr is a horrible, horrible idea. You know what is cool about dragons in Dark Sun? That there is only one known dragon and a small group of secret dragons, and that these dragons are all humans worshipped as gods. A race of dragons just ruins this. Yes I know about the dray. The dray would be the focus of a campaign and so are kind of an exception. So what does this mean? It means that we need to implement the Dark Sun fluff and disregard 4e fluff completely.
The 2e Dark Sun mechanics were just that: mechanics. They existed for two reasons: the primary reason is to implement the Dark Sun fluff, and the secondary reason was to fix problems with the 2e rules. Our 4e mechanics should do the same thing. However since the 4e rules are new there are no known problems (there are problems with the 4e rules; we just don't know them yet). So rather than clinging to 2e rules (starting at 3rd level for example) we need to approach this from a 4e perspective.
So what are some of the results? Well the original boxed set had the following races:
Humans, Elves, Half Elves, Dwarves, Mul, Halflings, Half-Giants, Thri-kreen. I can see dropping Half-Giants and Thri-kreen down to NPC/monster status, especially Thri-kreen. Eladrin, Dragonborn, and Tieflings have no place in the DS fluff. Dragonborn might be usable as Dray, which means that the PCs will never see them. Tieflings could be used as mutants and would be considered entirely Human.
Classes are partially a mechanical invention, and partially fluff. Let's break it down by power source:
MARTIAL
4e: fighter, rogue, ranger, warlord
DS: fighter, rogue, gladiator, bard
ok for the most part this is easy. The gladiator can be covered by the 4e martial classes just fine. The warlord will also be fine in DS. The bard is a little tricky. It might be best implemented as a paragon path for rogues. Rangers cause a little problem as they fall under the Elemental powersource in DS
ARCANE
4e: wizard, warlock
DS: defiler, preserver
I think that it is pretty clear that the defiler and preserver should come from the wizard class and that the warlock should go. We should be able to change the warlock's power source to elemental without problems
DIVINE/ELEMENTAL
4e: cleric, paladin, (warlock)
DS: cleric, templar, druid, ranger
Using the cleric as the cleric is pretty obvious. Using the warlock for the druid and/or templar is also a pretty good move. Perhaps turning the paladin into an elemental warrior (with no devotion to goodness) would make some sense and allow for the DS ranger role to be filled, perhaps it wouldn't.
PSIONIC
4e:
DS: psionicist, wild talents
Well we have a serious problem here. Psionics are extremely important to the DS setting. Wild talents would be easy enough to handle by giving everyone either an encounter, daily, or even at will power from a short list. However there would also need to be a class for Psionicists. This one is tricky and would probably require a lot of design and development work. If a full class is made then wild talents are easy, give everyone the multiclass feat. Maybe Psionics are important enough that they should steal the wizard class mechanics.
Ok now on to some ideas. In keeping with 4e philosopy non-metal weapons would be the default; metal weapons would give a bonus. Likewise preservers would be the default PC arcanist. However from a setting point of view defiling would be more common, though still extremely rare. Preservers would suffer temptation to become defilers. Preservers could be just like normal wizards (the 2e approach) or they could have some minor benefits and penalties. In 2e they had a skill called Somatic Concealment which was basically slight-of-hand, and they had to be able to blend in. Maybe some free rogue skills at the expense of having to use healing surges to do some magic might work.
As for setting, of course it would have to be before the Prism Pentad. All of the background information from the books is good stuff, but it really doesn't work as a setting for the players if the Sorceror Kings start dying and democracy comes to Tyr.
Graf
Explorer
I like your system, and would go with almost everything.
I like the idea of warlocks being empowered by the sorcerer kings.
For Paladins the only trick with making them elemental is that radiant damage is more powerful (few resistances, very good vs undead). You might need some sort of tweak.
I might be tempted to use Dragonborn stats for Muls but swap out the dwarven resilience for fire breath (so they'd have something obvious connecting them to dwarves).
I agree that bone weapons should be +0 and that iron/steel weapons should be treated like magic weapons in game terms. (if that was what you were saying).
People have argued a lot about perserving/defiling on this thread, and there are a few good ideas. Personally I'd just say wizard=preserver and defiler=npc.
A PC who defiles gets some sort of situational beneft (i.e. the DM makes it up then), but the next time they either have to defile or take -2 on the to hit role.
For psionics I'd just say "everyone gets an extra encounter power, pick one, and sell me on how it's psionic".
You can't build a system like that by yourself, better to just do it case by case.
I like the idea of warlocks being empowered by the sorcerer kings.
For Paladins the only trick with making them elemental is that radiant damage is more powerful (few resistances, very good vs undead). You might need some sort of tweak.
I might be tempted to use Dragonborn stats for Muls but swap out the dwarven resilience for fire breath (so they'd have something obvious connecting them to dwarves).
I agree that bone weapons should be +0 and that iron/steel weapons should be treated like magic weapons in game terms. (if that was what you were saying).
People have argued a lot about perserving/defiling on this thread, and there are a few good ideas. Personally I'd just say wizard=preserver and defiler=npc.
A PC who defiles gets some sort of situational beneft (i.e. the DM makes it up then), but the next time they either have to defile or take -2 on the to hit role.
For psionics I'd just say "everyone gets an extra encounter power, pick one, and sell me on how it's psionic".
You can't build a system like that by yourself, better to just do it case by case.
Silverblade The Ench
First Post
Non-metal weapons, where appropriate should always give a penaty, never a "bonus", as you'd have it. They are inferior.
A wooden club is fine, a wooden shortsword is not very good, there's no two ways about it. Wood's not very good for pierce/slash wepaons, it's not dense/hard enough to be as good as metal for some blunt weapons.
However, you have agifari wood in DS, that's as good as bronze, so your agafari wood shortsword would give normal hit/damage.
Obsidian, IMHO, should give +1 damage for pierce/slash weapons, it's horrendously sharp in RL! but it breaks very easy, dunno if 4th ed covers this, sunder??
The advantage metal weapons give are: no penalty, some DS creatures have damage reduction/iron ! Good hardness/hit points.
I'd imagine a lot of beasties acid/saliva or whatever would corrode wood wepaons easily, as most creatures rely heavily on enzymes that break down organics, not metals. ie they act liek acids but moslty damage organic items liek wood, so, a giant slug would dissolve you and your wooden club, but not your metal dagger
Yup, DS fluff and "difference" to normal D&D is vital!
A wooden club is fine, a wooden shortsword is not very good, there's no two ways about it. Wood's not very good for pierce/slash wepaons, it's not dense/hard enough to be as good as metal for some blunt weapons.
However, you have agifari wood in DS, that's as good as bronze, so your agafari wood shortsword would give normal hit/damage.
Obsidian, IMHO, should give +1 damage for pierce/slash weapons, it's horrendously sharp in RL! but it breaks very easy, dunno if 4th ed covers this, sunder??
The advantage metal weapons give are: no penalty, some DS creatures have damage reduction/iron ! Good hardness/hit points.
I'd imagine a lot of beasties acid/saliva or whatever would corrode wood wepaons easily, as most creatures rely heavily on enzymes that break down organics, not metals. ie they act liek acids but moslty damage organic items liek wood, so, a giant slug would dissolve you and your wooden club, but not your metal dagger
Yup, DS fluff and "difference" to normal D&D is vital!
It was OK. It was very focused on high-level play, providing level 20+ options for all the character classes. Defilers, Preservers, and Clerics who were also dual-classed as Psionicists could start transforming into different creatures. Defilers slowly turned to Dragons, Preservers to Avangions, and Clerics turned into Elementals for a certain time each day. For the wizards, this was the only post-20 advancement, whereas clerics could still do regular advancement. Fighters and gladiators got huge armies, thieves and bards started learning some illusion magic, druids got more of the same, and templars couldn't advance above 20th at all (something about the SKs not wanting competition). Psionicists were approached by the Order, a society of level 20+ psionicists who were dedicated to non-interference and the purity of psionics.Korgoth said:
There were some other stuff as well, mostly Battlesystem related or some new spells and psionics, but the bulk was focused on the epic-level stuff.
Now that we have seen rituals, I think that the best / simplest / most effective ideas for emulating defiling in 4e are:
Ritual casting: you can defile the land in order to power arcane rituals (however you want to define that) in leiu of material component costs, but not focuses - you'd still need a mirror to scry with.
Powers: defiling provides an enhancement bonus to arcane Implement powers, like a wand, staff, orb would. Being an enhancement bonus, it would not stack with that of an actual implement, but you wouldn't need to carry one around (you might anyway for it's side benefits), and the bonus might be a little higher than you'd have normally. Say, +1 at level 1 and going up by +1 at level 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, 30.
Both ideas appeared earlier in the thread. I think they capture the idea of defiling as the "easy" path to power, and also as an option that someone might be tempted to use in a pinch... especially in a world where arcane components are illegal.
Ritual casting: you can defile the land in order to power arcane rituals (however you want to define that) in leiu of material component costs, but not focuses - you'd still need a mirror to scry with.
Powers: defiling provides an enhancement bonus to arcane Implement powers, like a wand, staff, orb would. Being an enhancement bonus, it would not stack with that of an actual implement, but you wouldn't need to carry one around (you might anyway for it's side benefits), and the bonus might be a little higher than you'd have normally. Say, +1 at level 1 and going up by +1 at level 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, 30.
Both ideas appeared earlier in the thread. I think they capture the idea of defiling as the "easy" path to power, and also as an option that someone might be tempted to use in a pinch... especially in a world where arcane components are illegal.
jonjorgensen
First Post
these ideas are teken from others and changed slightly
Magic:
Feared by the untutored, hated by the educated, and the source of many great evils throughout all Aethas. Magic is not in itself evil, but many terrible figures have used magic to cut swathes of destruction across the civilized lands. Two schools of magic exist to the tutored: defiling magic and preserving magic. To cast spells normally, a person must tap into the life-force of the world and bend it into the desired affect. A person so inclined, may, if he or she wishes, bolster their power by stripping the life energy around him from the world and leaving a fine gray lifeless ash around them.*
PRESERVING MAGIC: No change from the normal rules of a warlock or a wizard. Clerics, paladins and other classes do not draw their power from the life energy of Aethas, but from the Elemental Chaos.
DEFILING MAGIC: For every level of the spell or ritual cast, a BLAST area affect of 1 per level, drains the life energy around the caster and leaves an empty greasy ash in its place. Creatures caught in the area lose 1 hp per level of the spell, and are affected by combat advantage. The caster is unaffected by this.
The defiling maximizes the spell cast and has NECROTIC added to the damage type. Casting this way is an evil act and should have repercussions, additionally casting in area of no life (deep deserts, icy wasteland) automatically fails unless the wizards sucks away his own life force.
To use you own life force, you permanently drain 1d10 hit point per level from yourself. These hit points can never be returned in any way, the are the life force and soul that drives the creature.
Defile Wizard Encounter 1
You drain life from Aethas to empower your spells.
Encounter * Arcane
Minor Action * Personal
Effect: You can cast 1 additonal Encounter Power.
Special: All terrain in Burst 2 becomes Defiled.
Any Wizards who chooses not to use this are Preservers.
Defiling the Land Wizard Utility 2
You drain energy from the very land to fuel your spells, leaving the earth barren and dessicated in your wake.
Encounter * Arcane
Minor Action Personal
Effect: You gain a +1 power bonus to attack and damage with spells until the end of your turn.
Sustain Minor: You can keep this effect sustained for an encounter or five minutes.
Special: Whenever you cast a spell while under the effect of this power, the square in which you are standing becomes defiled. You do not gain the benefit of this effect when standing in a defiled square.
Blacken Wizard Utility 3
Desperate for power, you rip the very soul from Athas, withering the landscape around you.
Daily * Arcane
Standard Action * Personal
Effect: You can cast 1 additonal Daily Power.
Special: All terrain in Burst 6 becomes Defiled.
Any Wizards who chooses not to use this are Preservers.
Magic:
Feared by the untutored, hated by the educated, and the source of many great evils throughout all Aethas. Magic is not in itself evil, but many terrible figures have used magic to cut swathes of destruction across the civilized lands. Two schools of magic exist to the tutored: defiling magic and preserving magic. To cast spells normally, a person must tap into the life-force of the world and bend it into the desired affect. A person so inclined, may, if he or she wishes, bolster their power by stripping the life energy around him from the world and leaving a fine gray lifeless ash around them.*
PRESERVING MAGIC: No change from the normal rules of a warlock or a wizard. Clerics, paladins and other classes do not draw their power from the life energy of Aethas, but from the Elemental Chaos.
DEFILING MAGIC: For every level of the spell or ritual cast, a BLAST area affect of 1 per level, drains the life energy around the caster and leaves an empty greasy ash in its place. Creatures caught in the area lose 1 hp per level of the spell, and are affected by combat advantage. The caster is unaffected by this.
The defiling maximizes the spell cast and has NECROTIC added to the damage type. Casting this way is an evil act and should have repercussions, additionally casting in area of no life (deep deserts, icy wasteland) automatically fails unless the wizards sucks away his own life force.
To use you own life force, you permanently drain 1d10 hit point per level from yourself. These hit points can never be returned in any way, the are the life force and soul that drives the creature.
Defile Wizard Encounter 1
You drain life from Aethas to empower your spells.
Encounter * Arcane
Minor Action * Personal
Effect: You can cast 1 additonal Encounter Power.
Special: All terrain in Burst 2 becomes Defiled.
Any Wizards who chooses not to use this are Preservers.
Defiling the Land Wizard Utility 2
You drain energy from the very land to fuel your spells, leaving the earth barren and dessicated in your wake.
Encounter * Arcane
Minor Action Personal
Effect: You gain a +1 power bonus to attack and damage with spells until the end of your turn.
Sustain Minor: You can keep this effect sustained for an encounter or five minutes.
Special: Whenever you cast a spell while under the effect of this power, the square in which you are standing becomes defiled. You do not gain the benefit of this effect when standing in a defiled square.
Blacken Wizard Utility 3
Desperate for power, you rip the very soul from Athas, withering the landscape around you.
Daily * Arcane
Standard Action * Personal
Effect: You can cast 1 additonal Daily Power.
Special: All terrain in Burst 6 becomes Defiled.
Any Wizards who chooses not to use this are Preservers.
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